Using US Spec ChAdeMo in Europe with a US Spec Model S

[Galve2000]

I hope to some day ship my US spec model S to Greece to use as a daily driver / vacation car.

I already know I can wire a NEMA 14-50 or a HPWC between hot and neutral for Level 2 charging, and i don't really expect to use my car for road trips but was wondering if the US Spec ChAdeMo adapter would work with a european ChaAdeMo station.

While Tesla is saying it will add superchargers in greece over the next few years, and I do hope that Tesla at some point starts offering to localize cars to a different market (especially in light of EMs comments during the Model 3 reveal that a Model 3 can charge anywhere worldwide) but I believe this to be many years on.

At the very least i would love for Maps/Google to give directions to my american spec car in european cites.I would not mind using my own MiFi with a local SIM to give my car internet access.

For those who are curious, i would only need the car 4-5 months a year so I could import it temporarily, and would surrender the plates and tie the steering wheel to the goose pedal with a customs seal while the car is not in use.

 

[Chris TX]

I already know I can wire a NEMA 14-50 or a HPWC between hot and neutral for Level 2 charging, and i don't really expect to use my car for road trips but was wondering if the US Spec CHAdeMo adapter would work with a European CHAdeMo station.

If Greece is like other Euro countries, you will only have 3-phase. You would need to take two hots and a ground to connect to a HPWC. You might be able to make an adapter to get L2 voltage from a 3-phase to 14-50 adapter (fabricate and/or use at your own risk, in a pinch. Do not connect anything to the Neutral connector.)

As for CHAdeMO, it should work with the US/JP spec adapter over there since it's a standard. That's the only L3 charging you'll be able to do unless you drive to Jordan where they've got some TSL02 Superchargers

 

[miimura]

If you plan to use the Mobile Connector with European 230VAC, you need to make sure it can handle 230V above ground. Each hot leg of a 14-50 socket is only 120V above ground. The new Wall Connector can handle 277V above ground and it is specifically approved for 277V L-N usage.

The CHAdeMO adapter should work in Europe without any problems.

@Chris TX - what makes you think the SuperChargers in Jordan use the TSL02 connector? It would make a lot more sense for it to use the Tesla modified Type-2 connector. Of course, the organization that installed them (which was not Tesla) could decide whichever way they wanted since they were coordinating the cars and the SuperChargers.

 

[Chris TX]

If you plan to use the Mobile Connector with European 230VAC, you need to make sure it can handle 230V above ground. Each hot leg of a 14-50 socket is only 120V above ground. The new Wall Connector can handle 277V above ground and it is specifically approved for 277V L-N usage.

The CHAdeMO adapter should work in Europe without any problems.

@Chris TX - what makes you think the SuperChargers in Jordan use the TSL02 connector? It would make a lot more sense for it to use the Tesla modified Type-2 connector. Of course, the organization that installed them (which was not Tesla) could decide whichever way they wanted since they were coordinating the cars and the SuperChargers.

One of the guys from Jordan popped in here last year and said he imported a US spec Model S and was going to use one of these Superchargers. This same question was asked as to what kind of outlet the charge handles had and he said it matched his car's port. I'll dig around to see if I can find it.

EDIT: Nevermind. I see they are the bigger Euro spec outlets: Manaseer Group on Twitter

There was a guy in Jordan that did import a US spec one, though. He bought it when he visited the states and had it shipped over.

 

[Galve2000]

If Greece is like other Euro countries, you will only have 3-phase. You would need to take two hots and a ground to connect to a HPWC. You might be able to make an adapter to get L2 voltage from a 3-phase to 14-50 adapter (fabricate and/or use at your own risk, in a pinch. Do not connect anything to the Neutral connector.)

My summer home on one of the Greek islands is only wired for single phase power. I thought for a long time that only single phase power was available on the island but I recently stumbled across a bunch of real estate listings which actually tout 3-hase power availability as a feature.

I'm not an expert but I believe the amount of Volts a wire can carry is limited by the provided insulation and most modern appliances in the US are insulated for upto 600 V, so 230 V is well within spec.

As for CHAdeMO, it should work with the US/JP spec adapter over there since it's a standard. That's the only L3 charging you'll be able to do unless you drive to Jordan where they've got some TSL02 Superchargers

This info is surprising. although stranger things have happened. I'm going to do some digging myself. At least from what I have read on TMC it sounds like the SuperChargers in Jordan were put in place by a private company other than Tesla Motors so they may have just chosen to go US spec b/c it was more readily available. but for almost every other technology I can think of, the Midlde East usually shares regional characteristics of Europe and Asia...

The more I think about this charging connector issue, the more I wish Tesla had used there modified Mennekes Type 2 plug as the proprietary spec world wide. I mean the US Model S connector is great, but it is completely proprietary, so since they decided to go the proprietary route, they could chose anything and everything so why not the standard European Mennekes? I guess they decided on the European spec much to late and the US Model S plug was already in development; but my point is they would have had one plug world wide regardless of region.

 

[Chris TX]

My summer home on one of the Greek islands is only wired for single phase power. I thought for a long time that only single phase power was available on the island but I recently stumbled across a bunch of real estate listings which actually tout 3-hase power availability as a feature.

I'm not an expert but I believe the amount of Volts a wire can carry is limited by the provided insulation and most modern appliances in the US are insulated for upto 600 V, so 230 V is well within spec.



This info is surprising. although stranger things have happened. I'm going to do some digging myself. At least from what I have read on TMC it sounds like the SuperChargers in Jordan were put in place by a private company other than Tesla Motors so they may have just chosen to go US spec b/c it was more readily available. but for almost every other technology I can think of, the Midlde East usually shares regional characteristics of Europe and Asia...

The more I think about this charging connector issue, the more I wish Tesla had used there modified Mennekes Type 2 plug as the proprietary spec world wide. I mean the US Model S connector is great, but it is completely proprietary, so since they decided to go the proprietary route, they could chose anything and everything so why not the standard European Mennekes? I guess they decided on the European spec much to late and the US Model S plug was already in development; but my point is they would have had one plug world wide regardless of region.

Yes, the wires of the UMC or HPWC would handle the voltage, but the electronics inside them wouldn't handle all three phases. Although, there is no active Neutral connection on the UMC. Since you only have single phase, you should be fine.

As for the Jordan Superchargers, I've gone back and found they are the Type2 plug (see my other post for the Twitpic.) Type2 is not in Japan. You should be able to adapt Mennekes Type2 to J1772, being able to pull out one of the three phases plus ground. Here's one that will get you Level 2 charging, but SHOULD not allow L3 Supercharging. Be careful and don't try Supercharging, though: All the pins might be in place to actually allow a Supercharger handshake and the wire gauge is not suited for the amperage. I'm also pretty sure the J1772-TSL02 adapter isn't rated for that amperage, as well.

 

[FlasherZ]

The more I think about this charging connector issue, the more I wish Tesla had used there modified Mennekes Type 2 plug as the proprietary spec world wide. I mean the US Model S connector is great, but it is completely proprietary, so since they decided to go the proprietary route, they could chose anything and everything so why not the standard European Mennekes? I guess they decided on the European spec much to late and the US Model S plug was already in development; but my point is they would have had one plug world wide regardless of region.

The European connector doesn't score as well as the TSL02 connector for usability. It's much easier to plug in the TSL02 because of the edges and shape of the connector -- you don't have to have the connector fully centered and keyed before it will guide into the receptacle. The Mennekes connector is better than the J1772 by far, but still doesn't center and connect as easily as TSL02.

The reason they had to go with Mennekes in Europe was because TSL02 didn't have three conductors for three-phase power and they had to quickly adjust to put 3-phase in place. They probably could have designed a TSL03 at that point, but it seems like the Mennekes was "good enough".

 

[Galve2000]

As for the Jordan Superchargers, I've gone back and found they are the Type2 plug (see my other post for the Twitpic.) Type2 is not in Japan. You should be able to adapt Mennekes Type2 to J1772, being able to pull out one of the three phases plus ground. Here's one that will get you Level 2 charging, but SHOULD not allow L3 Supercharging.

Are you saying I could get 11 kW from my single onbroad charger if I connect your quoted adapter to a 3-phase power source? I mean 7.4 kW from a one-phase source is not the end of the world (18-20 miles per hr of charge, instead of 25 from a NEMA 14-50)

then again, if I could find a 40 amp breaker in Greece, I would use that with your basic NEMA 14-50 and be done.

The reason they had to go with Mennekes in Europe was because TSL02 didn't have three conductors for three-phase power and they had to quickly adjust to put 3-phase in place. They probably could have designed a TSL03 at that point, but it seems like the Mennekes was "good enough".

I always assumed that in Europe they went with Mennekes Type 2 connector (Modified for supercharging/Level 3 needs) b/c there are Mennekes type 2 outlets already "in the wild" all over Europe and Tesla wanted to take advantage of a pre-existing "destination charger" network. (I've been researching european charging standards the past few days on-line and over and over again I see in "European Charging basics" type pages that the Mennekes Type 2 is "european standard" for Level 2 charging.)

That said, the 1st time I noticed Mennekes Type 1 and Type 2 outlets in the wild was when I wandered into a street festival in Malta 3 years ago. The techs were in the process of dismantling a stage of some sort and a light bulb went off in my head that these are the outlets that Tesla will provide with the European UMC... it was a real "aha moment" for me.

I bring this up b/c i have spent the bulk of my summers in europe since I was a baby and had not run into these plugs until well into my adult life, so perhaps they are not that common "in the wild" after all. That said, I didn't really become a BEV nerd until 2012 when I 1st heard of the Tesla Roadster... so I may have seen these outlets many times in fact without knowing or caring what they were.

 

[Chris TX]

Are you saying I could get 11 kW from my single onbroad charger if I connect your quoted adapter to a 3-phase power source? I mean 7.4 kW from a one-phase source is not the end of the world (18-20 miles per hr of charge, instead of 25 from a NEMA 14-50)

then again, if I could find a 40 amp breaker in Greece, I would use that with your basic NEMA 14-50 and be done.




I always assumed that in Europe they went with Mennekes Type 2 connector (Modified for supercharging/Level 3 needs) b/c there are Mennekes type 2 outlets already "in the wild" all over Europe and Tesla wanted to take advantage of a pre-existing "destination charger" network. (I've been researching european charging standards the past few days on-line and over and over again I see in "European Charging basics" type pages that the Mennekes Type 2 is "european standard" for Level 2 charging.)

That said, the 1st time I noticed Mennekes Type 1 and Type 2 outlets in the wild was when I wandered into a street festival in Malta 3 years ago. The techs were in the process of dismantling a stage of some sort and a light bulb went off in my head that these are the outlets that Tesla will provide with the European UMC... it was a real "aha moment" for me.

I bring this up b/c i have spent the bulk of my summers in europe since I was a baby and had not run into these plugs until well into my adult life, so perhaps they are not that common "in the wild" after all. That said, I didn't really become a BEV nerd until 2012 when I 1st heard of the Tesla Roadster... so I may have seen these outlets many times in fact without knowing or caring what they were.

With 3-phase, you're probably not going to be at 250VAC so 10kW charging probably isn't going to happen. You'd need to isolate two legs of the 3-phase to produce 208-230VAC and go up to 40A with the proper gauge wiring. The single charger can only do 40A, regardless of the voltage.

Tesla puts the Mennekes Type 2 connector on the cars in Europe because it's mandated. Plus, the TSL02 connector doesn't have the pins to do 3-phase, as it's only a differently-shaped J1772 (single phase only). Technically, since Superchargers are DC and only require two of the connections to be large and high amperage bearing, I bet a special Type 2 to TSL02 adapter could be made specifically for Supercharging. It would probably cause problems if someone tried to use it for Level 2 charging, though.

 

[Galve2000]

So you are saying I should not plug my Model S with Mennekes Type 2 plug and J1772 to Model S adapter into a 3 phase public charger? sounds like the J1772 spec cannot handle 3 phases.. i do not want to fry my onboard charger, but I do want to be able to charge fm public level 2 chargers on occasion

 

[Chris TX]

So you are saying I should not plug my Model S with Mennekes Type 2 plug and J1772 to Model S adapter into a 3 phase public charger? sounds like the J1772 spec cannot handle 3 phases.. i do not want to fry my onboard charger, but I do want to be able to charge fm public level 2 chargers on occasion

If you don't have the Mennekes Type 2 connection on your Tesla, you would need an adapter to grab two of the three hots. If you have the TSL02 connector on your car, your onboard charger can only handle single phase power (or two legs from three phase). That adapter cable I linked does that for you so you could charge at 3phase public chargers, relatively safe. Just don't try to connect it to a Supercharger.

If your house only has single phase, you would just do the same as you would here in the US with 14-50 or HPWC.

 

[FlasherZ]

I always assumed that in Europe they went with Mennekes Type 2 connector (Modified for supercharging/Level 3 needs) b/c there are Mennekes type 2 outlets already "in the wild" all over Europe and Tesla wanted to take advantage of a pre-existing "destination charger" network. (I've been researching european charging standards the past few days on-line and over and over again I see in "European Charging basics" type pages that the Mennekes Type 2 is "european standard" for Level 2 charging.)

Well, there were - but that doesn't seem to have bothered them; the US, the presence of J1772 didn't stop them from putting TSL02 in place. I also believe there was talk about laws requiring Mennekes as a standard as well.

 

[miimura]

My concern stated above is whether the US-Spec UMC can handle 230VAC above ground. Which I have not seen a clear answer for. You don't have to use the UMC. If you take the US spec Model S to Europe, you can use most public socketed charging points. You just have to buy the proper cable. Tesla provides Type-2 to Type-2 cable with the EU Model S (as far as I recall) but you would use a Type-2 to J1772 cable, just like a Nissan Leaf would, then use the provided Tesla J1772 adapter. These cables are readily available at sites like this UK site. If the station is a "Fast AC" site like the ones that are AC/CCS/CHAdeMO, then they will have a captive cable that you can't use adapters or additional cables with, so those won't work.

 

[FlasherZ]

My concern stated above is whether the US-Spec UMC can handle 230VAC above ground. Which I have not seen a clear answer for. You don't have to use the UMC. If you take the US spec Model S to Europe, you can use most public socketed charging points. You just have to buy the proper cable. Tesla provides Type-2 to Type-2 cable with the EU Model S (as far as I recall) but you would use a Type-2 to J1772 cable, just like a Nissan Leaf would, then use the provided Tesla J1772 adapter. These cables are readily available at sites like this UK site. If the station is a "Fast AC" site like the ones that are AC/CCS/CHAdeMO, then they will have a captive cable that you can't use adapters or additional cables with, so those won't work.

Yes, it can handle 230V above ground. The line conductor must be on a specific input blade, though - the UMC wants to see voltage vs ground on one of the input conductors - which particular one escapes me but it's in the archive.

 

[GSP]

So you are saying I should not plug my Model S with Mennekes Type 2 plug and J1772 to Model S adapter into a 3 phase public charger? sounds like the J1772 spec cannot handle 3 phases.. i do not want to fry my onboard charger, but I do want to be able to charge fm public level 2 chargers on occasion

I do not believe that is what ChrisTX or FlasherZ are saying (they really know this stuff, by the way).

Using the TSL02 to Type 1 (aka J1772) adapter that comes with your North American-spec car, and a standard Type 1 to Type 2 cable, will allow you to charge at any standard Type 2 European charging station. Your car will charge slower than a 3-phase car, because only one of the phases is connected. It will not hurt your car. This is how all of the other Type1 cars also charge in Europe.

If you go to France, you might find Type 3 charging stations, which will require you to get a Type 3 to Type 1 cable.

As previously mentioned, Tesla's North American Chademo adapter should work in Europe with your car, giving you another, much faster, public charging option. However, you may be the first person to actually try this.

GSP

 

[Galve2000]

Thank u all for helping me clear all this up! I won't be importing my model S to Greece for at least another 3 or 4 years but I like to have my ducks in a row ahead of time.

 

[thanar]

Importing a US model S to Europe brings numerous issues, biggest would be different public charging infrastructures and mobile data protocols. I would not rule out the possibility that assisted driving / autopilot software would not be compatible, due to huge road signing differences between US and Europe.
If I were you, I would sell the model S upon leaving the states and reserve a model 3 to collect in Greece asap.

 

[Galve2000]

If you don't have the Mennekes Type 2 connection on your Tesla, you would need an adapter to grab two of the three hots. If you have the TSL02 connector on your car, your onboard charger can only handle single phase power (or two legs from three phase). That adapter cable I linked does that for you so you could charge at 3phase public chargers, relatively safe. .

Does any of this info change if I have dual chargers?

 

[sunnyvale]

What is "dual chargers" ?

 

[Galve2000]

What is "dual chargers" ?

Older Model Ss like my own shipped with a single AC-DC converter that was capable of pulling 40 Amps from an outlet. you could double this to 80 Amps by adding a second such AC-DC converter. we call them onboard chargers and "dual chargers" to differentiate them from those vehicles that only have a single charger (like my own)

Tesla Charging | Tesla

later Model Ss and all Model X shipped with a single onboard charger capable of 72 Amps, but software limited to 48 Amps

so i am asking again.. if I pulled 3 phase power into my T02 connection and had dual chargers, would I get 20 kW or 7kW?