Veganism/Leather etc. out of Market Action

[TSLA Pilot]

Sad, really, how so many are so firmly attached to positions that are unsupported by the facts. There were literally over SEVEN thousand studies before the US Surgeon General finally posted warnings on cigarette packages, after several more years of "study."

Today there is an even greater support for the status quo when it comes to the consumption of animal flesh, despite the overwhelming evidence of the damage it causes to us, our planet's environment, and the moral and ethical repercussions. Millions will suffer shorter lives and significant, debilitating illnesses as a result.

Here's a summary of the planetary impact, arguably worse than all transport emissions combined . . . .

Facts and Sources

And yet we have "push back" from those that just cannot handle change, change that challenges their unsupported worldviews.

 

[oneday]

Sad, really, how so many are so firmly attached to positions that are unsupported by the facts. There were literally over SEVEN thousand studies before the US Surgeon General finally posted warnings on cigarette packages, after several more years of "study."

Today there is an even greater support for the status quo when it comes to the consumption of animal flesh, despite the overwhelming evidence of the damage it causes to us, our planet's environment, and the moral and ethical repercussions. Millions will suffer shorter lives and significant, debilitating illnesses as a result.

Here's a summary of the planetary impact, arguably worse than all transport emissions combined . . . .

Facts and Sources

And yet we have "push back" from those that just cannot handle change, change that challenges their unsupported worldviews.

It says 477 gallons of water to produce 1 lb of eggs. I have chickens that have produce about 2500 eggs in the last year. I’ve used about 100 gallons of water to produce that many.

Just one data point, and I don’t have a commercial operation by any means, so perhaps not apples to apples. But this does make me question their data.

I have been convinced of the environmental degradation from cattle farming and have almost eliminated beef from my diet.

Edit: I did not account for their feed..... my chickens eat mostly from compost, but that is not the case for factory farming. Just had a lightbulb moment right when I hit post

 

[renim]

Triglycerides 65
Cholesterol total 386
Cholesterol HDL 72
Cholesterol LDL (calcule) 301

thats very personal to disclose on internet..

low Triglycerides
high Cholesterol HDL
high Cholesterol LDL
low remnant cholesterol

impressive, unless there is a confounding factor (or differing measurement units), Lycanthrope is most likely lean and athletic.

 

[JRP3]

It's worth reading through a thread before posting, and avoiding getting emotional about the subject.

 

[Tslynk67]

thats very personal to disclose on internet..

low Triglycerides
high Cholesterol HDL
high Cholesterol LDL
low remnant cholesterol

impressive, unless there is a confounding factor (or differing measurement units), Lycanthrope is most likely lean and athletic.

I think "lean and athletic" would be pushing it, but Im in pretty good shape...

You have obviously been following Dave Feldman's work!

 

[JRP3]

Levels

E-coli is coming mostly from salads these days...

Guess where the e ecoli came from?

I did get gout about 8 years ago, it was when I lost a lot of weight (I've always had quite high uric acid) by going Paleo

. You do know, I guess, that serum cholesterol has little, or no, relation to ingested

Seems only to be the case with already elevated levels.

 

[Tslynk67]

Seems only to be the case with already elevated levels.

In any case, elevated LDL is a key longevity marker in older populations, so I'm very happy with it. Very little evidence, in fact none that I know of, that high cholesterol per-se is bad. The trig/HDL ratio is far ore important. Lack of an association or an inverse association between low-density-lipoprotein cholesterol and mortality in the elderly: a systematic review

K2 is in the news: Vitamin K2: The Missing Nutrient | Chris Kresser

 

[Tslynk67]

You may want to read this too: 'What the Health' review: health claims backed by no solid evidence - Diet Doctor

Nina's the author of The Big Fat Surprise (which I mentioned up-thread), that's a book that everyone should read regardless of their dietary preference. It's the food-industry equivalent of Merchants of Doubt, another essential read and what we're seeing played-out with fossil fuels and climate change.

 

[JRP3]

K2 is in the news: Vitamin K2: The Missing Nutrient | Chris Kresser

Come on, a 10 year old article, by Kresser of all people, is "in the news"? In fact it's "out of the news". In any case even Kresser shows Natto at the top of his list for K2 sources.

Natto contains the highest concentration of K2 of any food measured; nearly all of it is present as MK-7, which research has shown to be a highly effective form. A recent study demonstrated that MK-7 increased the percentage of osteocalcin in humans three times more powerfully than did vitamin K1. (Schurgers & Vermeer, 2000, pp. 298-307)

Nattō is a traditional Japanese food made from soybeans fermented with Bacillus subtilis var. natto.

Nattō - Wikipedia

 

[JRP3]

You may want to read this too: 'What the Health' review: health claims backed by no solid evidence - Diet Doctor

Nina's the author of The Big Fat Surprise (which I mentioned up-thread), that's a book that everyone should read regardless of their dietary preference. It's the food-industry equivalent of Merchants of Doubt, another essential read and what we're seeing played-out with fossil fuels and climate change.

Newspaper, magazine articles, and blog posts
Because these are not peer reviewed, they can’t be considered as rigorous sources of evidence, although some publications are better than others. Articles by biased sources (e.g., vegan diet doctors) will be coded in red, because they have both commercial and intellectual conflicts of interest.

Sort of like a blog post from someone selling a book pushing meat butter and cheese? Her basic premise discredits her own article.

 

[Tslynk67]

Come on, a 10 year old article, by Kresser of all people, is "in the news"? In fact it's "out of the news". In any case even Kresser shows Natto at the top of his list for K2 sources.

Nattō - Wikipedia

I know he shows natto as the top, I wasn't sharing it as a pro-meat anti-vegan stance, it was out of general interest.

It wasn't so long ago that I was fermenting my own sauerkraut. I'm not at all anti-vegan, I AM anti-ideology and pushing that ideology on others when I believe it's essentially harmful unless done very carefully.

 

[Tslynk67]

Sort of like a blog post from someone selling a book pushing meat butter and cheese? Her basic premise discredits her own article.

You've picked-out one small section there to try and discredit the whole article, which is totally against what you've been saying throughout this discussion, which is that all claims must be backed by peer-reviewed science (not that peer-reviewed science is often worth much, but that's another discussion). She right to call out claims that have no backing in fact, why not, after all, this film is pushing them as facts.

In any case, she's not pushing fats, well other than the fact that fats are essential for human life and were incorrectly accused as being behind the rise of CVS in the 1940's onwards. Her book isn't pushing anything, it's exposing how we arrived at the poisonous diet most people in the western world are eating these days. And yes, it's all about ego, money and politics, zero to do with health.

Note that when I talk about fats being good, I'm referring to saturated and mono-saturated, unprocessed fats with a good 03:06 ratio, not the crap they extract from seeds at high temperature, then treat to remove the toxins and foul smell. The latter are one of the drivers behind the modern chronic diseases, but guess what, they're very profitable...

In any case, read her book.

 

[JRP3]

I AM anti-ideology and pushing that ideology on others when I believe it's essentially harmful unless done very carefully.

Well you do seem to be promoting an extreme all meat diet which could very well be harmful in the long term.

 

[JRP3]

You've picked-out one small section there to try and discredit the whole article, which is totally against what you've been saying throughout this discussion, which is that all claims must be backed by peer-reviewed science (not that peer-reviewed science is often worth much, but that's another discussion). She right to call out claims that have no backing in fact, why not, after all, this film is pushing them as facts.

I don't disagree with everything she says I'm simply pointing out that by her own standards her books and articles would be "color coded red" and "cannot be considered support for the claim"

 

[Tslynk67]

"

I don't disagree with everything she says I'm simply pointing out that by her own standards her books and articles would be "color coded red" and "cannot be considered support for the claim"

Her book is investigative journalism, not a nutrition book, although it obviously makes references to nutrition.

 

[Tslynk67]

Well you do seem to be promoting an extreme all meat diet which could very well be harmful in the long term.

I'm not promoting an all-meat diet, I'm following it for the moment (as are quite a few others) and doing very well. Given than humans evolved eating meat, especially fats, organ meats, brain, and bone-marrow - this is how we managed to develop such large brains, so quickly - I don't see how eating a meat diet could be harmful. Processed meats is a another matter, I agree. Then the only discussion would be whether it's necessary to also eat some plant matter. From a pure human nutrition perspective the answer's a clear "no", meat, especially organ meats are nutritionally complete. The matter is more of whether you need some fibre for your micro-biome and so far what I've read indicates that on a low-carb, high-fat regime, you don't as the "bad" bacteria in the stomach don't get the sugars they need to thrive; allowing the "good" bacteria to thrive.

I do know some people who get sick eating vegetables, so there is a %age of the population - a minority, I agree - that cannot handle the toxins in plants, even in trace amounts.

There's not a single RCT showing that meat is unhealthy for humans, if you know of one, please send me the URL, I'm open-minded to change at any time.

Only think i'm promoting, anti-promoting actually, is that I do not believe the vegan diet is healthy for humans, at least not without supplementation. Even then, a vegan diet is very much based around carbohydrates as a major source of calories. Carbohydrates are the only known macronutrient that humans don't need to eat - the body does need a tiny amount for the lens of the eyes, but this is very easily manufactured. The rest of energy needs can come from fats and fats converted to ketones.

Carbohydrates are detrimental to health. Carbohydrates are the root-cause of metabolic syndrome - obesity, T2DM, CVD, etc. Along with O6 rich industrial seed-oils, they are a relatively new introduction to our diet, at least in the huge quantities we eat these days. They're highly addictive too and the food industry carefully formulates their manufactured imitation food to get people hooked to they eat more.

I think any diet that removes processed foods - sugars, 06 oils, flour, especially - from the diet is a better one and yes, that includes vegan. But I don't think vegan is the best and I don't think eating meat is destroying the environment. I do agree that some farming methods are causing environmental damage, but that's something else which could be translated into a net positive for the planet if these farmers moved away from feed-lots and into regenerative pasture model. This type of farming sequesters carbon and allows for better animal welfare.

 

[JRP3]

this is how we managed to develop such large brains, so quickly

Seems unlikely since many other animals eat more meat than we do yet we are more intelligent. It would be more likely that something else caused our brain development.

I don't see how eating a meat diet could be harmful.

If you are overestimating the amount and type of meat we evolved to eat it could indeed be harmful. Small amounts of lean wild game is not the same as eating only modern farm animals.

Carbohydrates are detrimental to health.

You better stop eating meat then: " Galactose-alpha-1,3-galactose, commonly known as alpha gal, is a carbohydrate found in most mammalian cell membranes." Galactose-alpha-1,3-galactose - Wikipedia

Many healthy populations eat carbohydrate rich diets. If you changed your statement to "Refined carbohydrates" I'd agree with you.

I do know some people who get sick eating vegetables, so there is a %age of the population - a minority, I agree - that cannot handle the toxins in plants, even in trace amounts.

Irrelevant. Some people are allergic to meat, many can't handle milk and milk products. More people have issues with lactose than vegetables.

 

[Tslynk67]

Seems unlikely since many other animals eat more meat than we do yet we are more intelligent. It would be more likely that something else caused our brain development.

We started to eat higher density foods, both nutritionally and calorie-wise, this freed us from chewing leaves all day.

If you are overestimating the amount and type of meat we evolved to eat it could indeed be harmful. Small amounts of lean wild game is not the same as eating only modern farm animals.

I eat more fat that protein. Fat is the primary energy source for mammals, both primate and ruminant guts convert leaves/grass into fatty-acids, which are then absorbed by the body. Human guts cannot do this, so best to eat plenty of good fat.

You better stop eating meat then: " Galactose-alpha-1,3-galactose, commonly known as alpha gal, is a carbohydrate found in most mammalian cell membranes." Galactose-alpha-1,3-galactose - Wikipedia

Many healthy populations eat carbohydrate rich diets. If you changed your statement to "Refined carbohydrates" I'd agree with you.

Well meat has glycogen in it, especially liver, but it's just traces.

Indeed, many cultures do eat carbs, but unprocessed, so the carbs are bound-up with fibres and do provide some nutrition, albeit not particularly bio-available.

But OK, we finally agree that processed carbs are not fit for human consumption. Hey, it's a start!

Irrelevant. Some people are allergic to meat, many can't handle milk and milk products. More people have issues with lactose than vegetables.

I'm aware of people becoming better eating just meat, but not so aware of the converse. It might be a bit of confirmation-bias, true. Agreed with lactose, you need the enzyme in order to process that, which a large percentage of the world don't posses. Milk proteins can also be tricky for many.

 

[JRP3]

We started to eat higher density foods, both nutritionally and calorie-wise, this freed us from chewing leaves all day.

Yes, cooking made the difference in easier digestion of both plant and animal matter.
Sorry, Paleos: Early Humans Ate Carbs And Were Better Off For It | HuffPost

Indeed, many cultures do eat carbs, but unprocessed, so the carbs are bound-up with fibres and do provide some nutrition, albeit not particularly bio-available.

Yet apparently bio-available enough to produce a number of very healthy populations.

I'm aware of people becoming better eating just meat, but not so aware of the converse. It might be a bit of confirmation-bias, true.

Indeed, I'm more aware of people claiming improved health from going vegan. I'm not vegan and have always been fairly healthy and in good shape but the last few years when I really increased my plant matter intake and eliminated beef and pork I've been even healthier. Last year for the first time in my life I had no fall hay fever allergy symptoms or spring allergy symptoms. Same this year so far. I recently found that some research suggests nutritional yeast may improve allergy symptoms, as well as providing B12
Best Food for Hay Fever (Seasonal Allergies) | NutritionFacts.org

 

[JRP3]

A meat only proponent blows vegan's mind