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Veganism/Leather etc. out of Market Action

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Yes, cooking made the difference in easier digestion of both plant and animal matter.
Sorry, Paleos: Early Humans Ate Carbs And Were Better Off For It | HuffPost

To cook we first needed a brain way more developed than our closest DNA ancestors...

Yet apparently bio-available enough to produce a number of very healthy populations.

That's because there's not a single population/culture through history that was vegan, they all ate meat or fish, quite simply because it's necessary.

Indeed, I'm more aware of people claiming improved health from going vegan. I'm not vegan and have always been fairly healthy and in good shape but the last few years when I really increased my plant matter intake and eliminated beef and pork I've been even healthier. Last year for the first time in my life I had no fall hay fever allergy symptoms or spring allergy symptoms. Same this year so far. I recently found that some research suggests nutritional yeast may improve allergy symptoms, as well as providing B12
Best Food for Hay Fever (Seasonal Allergies) | NutritionFacts.org

Great that you improved your health! Perhaps though by eating more veggies you out out some crappy foods and/or adapted your lifestyle in other positive ways that might also have been beneficial.

Remember that most vegans are coming from a garbage diet, not Paleo and the like, so you cannot attribute it to cutting out meat, more likely cutting out crap.
 
A meat only proponent blows vegan's mind ;)


Totally agree that what was the past doesn't mean is the best gong forward. But for really toxic stuff, like sugar, seed oils and grains, will take many generations for our genome to adapt to it.

And actually, it is better to poop squatting :)

Plants on paper indeed look nutritional, but that nutrition is not readily available.
 
@Lycanthrope

Every scientist and inventor from Newton to Tesla to Einstein was on a High Carb diet. The scientific and industrial revolution was built and made possible by people on high carb diet.

High fat low carb diet blunts pituitary growth hormone release in children https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/pedi.12527

Victorian labourers ate twice as much calories as modern man in carbohydrates, whole loaves of bread a day and never got obese, doing manual labour up until 70.

You think top sportsmen like Roger Federer and Lionel Messi are scoffing down meat or fat at intervals in sports game?

To say carbohydrates are evil is to say the whole of the last 10,000 years of human civilisation is wrong and you are right.

Obesity in the history of Europe existed only amongst the aristocracy until recently, who ate lots of meat. The thin peasants were stuck on a high carb diet of plants.

Today westerners eat meat and dairy and drink refined carbs (sugar) twice a day.

The main calories in the 500+calorie burgers westerners eat is not the small bread bun, aka the carbohydrate in it.

Dr on a pure meat has lower testosterone than women

I could go on until the cows come home.
 
Yet other intellectual greats like Darwin and Euler had a healthy rannge of animal product in their diet. Darwin in particular is famous for the breadth and variety of animals that he consumed.

But i concede that like celebracy, avoidance of animal foods is a common them for the ascetic.


But do tell
Did your Victorians eat hexane extracted vegetable oils.
Did your Victorians eat the CBP bread we have today?
Did your Victorians consume vast quantities of fructose and sucrose?

Or did they eat such delightful items as haggis and black pudding and herrings?

Even the poor Irish tried to keep a cow for each family.
 
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To cook we first needed a brain way more developed than our closest DNA ancestors...

I've previously shown evidence that we and our ancestors have been cooking for over a million years yet modern humans arrived maybe 200,000 years ago.

That's because there's not a single population/culture through history that was vegan, they all ate meat or fish, quite simply because it's necessary.

The same reasoning says that plants are necessary because no population/culture was purely carnivorous.

But the point is you keep ignoring the fact that most of the healthiest populations eat plenty of fruits and vegetables and relatively small amounts of meat. If plant matter were as harmful as you claim we would not see such results.

Great that you improved your health! Perhaps though by eating more veggies you out out some crappy foods and/or adapted your lifestyle in other positive ways that might also have been beneficial.

Simply put, no. I've always been active and healthy, the only difference in the last two years or so is that I further increased my plant matter intake and almost completely removed cows and pigs as a food item and reduced chicken and seafood to about once a week or less. Also I have not even completely eliminated junk food. Sometimes I'll eat donuts, fried chicken wings, or even McD's fries and a fillet o fish sandwich :eek: Those are rare occurrences but it does happen.

Remember that most vegans are coming from a garbage diet, not Paleo and the like, so you cannot attribute it to cutting out meat, more likely cutting out crap.

You really don't know what most vegans were eating before being vegan. You seem to keep creating scenarios in your mind as to how people are behaving that are not based in fact. Even if what you claim was actually the case we would not see long term vegans with very good blood profile results and excellent general health.
 
Is it just me, or does this thread kind of feel like we are debating politics? Who knew nutrition could be so polarizing.

Nutrition, unfortunately, has largely been a pseudoscience. I have a hard time knowing what to believe. People get emotional about it because it may heavily conflict with their traditions and every day lifestyle. I don’t want to give up cheeseburgers.

All I know is there is a pretty good chance the Japanese are doing it right. I do think westerners (me) probably eat too much meat. Studies that advocate eating no meat whatsoever certainly make me raise my eyebrow at least.
 
I don’t want to give up cheeseburgers.
You can give up meat and cheese and not give up cheeseburgers. There are more and more plant based analogs which are almost indistinguishable from animal based products. Some people can't tell the difference. Recently I've found some very good nut based cheeses. When you consider that cheese is basically just protein, fat, and cultures, there is no reason you can't get the same building blocks from plants.

 
You can give up meat and cheese and not give up cheeseburgers. There are more and more plant based analogs which are almost indistinguishable from animal based products. Some people can't tell the difference. Recently I've found some very good nut based cheeses. When you consider that cheese is basically just protein, fat, and cultures, there is no reason you can't get the same building blocks from plants.


Depends upon your definition of a cheeseburger ;) I’ve pretty much conceded that myself and the vast majority of western people will all eventually be eating something like that and true animal/dairy foods will become a relic of the past. Don’t know when exactly it will happen, but I suspect the market will have something to say about it (when cost+taste of animal substitute is on par with the real thing). Kind of like electric vehicles replacing ICE!
 
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@Lycanthrope

Every scientist and inventor from Newton to Tesla to Einstein was on a High Carb diet. The scientific and industrial revolution was built and made possible by people on high carb diet.

High fat low carb diet blunts pituitary growth hormone release in children https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/pedi.12527

Victorian labourers ate twice as much calories as modern man in carbohydrates, whole loaves of bread a day and never got obese, doing manual labour up until 70.

You think top sportsmen like Roger Federer and Lionel Messi are scoffing down meat or fat at intervals in sports game?

To say carbohydrates are evil is to say the whole of the last 10,000 years of human civilisation is wrong and you are right.

Obesity in the history of Europe existed only amongst the aristocracy until recently, who ate lots of meat. The thin peasants were stuck on a high carb diet of plants.

Today westerners eat meat and dairy and drink refined carbs (sugar) twice a day.

The main calories in the 500+calorie burgers westerners eat is not the small bread bun, aka the carbohydrate in it.

Dr on a pure meat has lower testosterone than women

I could go on until the cows come home.

Obesity in the rich was due to sugar consumption, which became more common-place with the refining of beet, as opposed to cane sugar in the last 100 ears or so (don't quote me on the actual dates).

Actually, meat and fat consumption has dropped in western society over the last 30 years, the low-fat, high-carb message was very effective. Likewise people exercise more. But everyone's getting obese, with T2DM or pre-T2DM, how come?

Top-level sportsmen do require a lot of calories, it's true. These calories can be easily gathered from body-fat if you're fat-adapted to burning ketones. Otherwise they will indeed ingest a lot of carbs, I'm sure.

And yes, the last 10000 years of human evolution have been a disaster - we got smaller and our brains shrank. We live longer, but that's due to less trauma and modern medicine controlling contagious disease and decreasing deaths at birth. Our health-span, however, is much shorter than our ancestors.

Clarification: High fat low carb diet blunts pituitary growth hormone release in 6 children with T1Diabetes

My point, which you're missing totally, is that vegetables and fruit are necessary, damaging for some. Sugar, industrial seed oils and grains are poisonous. Fructose, in it's processed HFCS is poison.

Meat is a complete food - of course one needs to eat head-to-tail, as our ancestors did. They ate the organs first, then the fat, then the muscle meat last. Most westerners eat muscle-meat and avoid the natural fats and organs. They get their fats from toxic 06-laden seed oils.

Given how most people on this forum are perfectly comfortable with the concept of Big Oil, I struggle to understand why you can't accept Big Food and Big Pharma too. Vegan is their new big thing and they're winning the battle I'm afraid.

A disclaimer as always: if it can be demonstrated that eating a vegan diet is better for my health and for the environment, I'll swap. But it cannot.
 
Obesity in the rich was due to sugar consumption, which became more common-place with the refining of beet, as opposed to cane sugar in the last 100 ears or so (don't quote me on the actual dates).

Actually, meat and fat consumption has dropped in western society over the last 30 years, the low-fat, high-carb message was very effective. Likewise people exercise more. But everyone's getting obese, with T2DM or pre-T2DM, how come?

Top-level sportsmen do require a lot of calories, it's true. These calories can be easily gathered from body-fat if you're fat-adapted to burning ketones. Otherwise they will indeed ingest a lot of carbs, I'm sure.

And yes, the last 10000 years of human evolution have been a disaster - we got smaller and our brains shrank. We live longer, but that's due to less trauma and modern medicine controlling contagious disease and decreasing deaths at birth. Our health-span, however, is much shorter than our ancestors.

Clarification: High fat low carb diet blunts pituitary growth hormone release in 6 children with T1Diabetes

My point, which you're missing totally, is that vegetables and fruit are necessary, damaging for some. Sugar, industrial seed oils and grains are poisonous. Fructose, in it's processed HFCS is poison.

Meat is a complete food - of course one needs to eat head-to-tail, as our ancestors did. They ate the organs first, then the fat, then the muscle meat last. Most westerners eat muscle-meat and avoid the natural fats and organs. They get their fats from toxic 06-laden seed oils.

Given how most people on this forum are perfectly comfortable with the concept of Big Oil, I struggle to understand why you can't accept Big Food and Big Pharma too. Vegan is their new big thing and they're winning the battle I'm afraid.

A disclaimer as always: if it can be demonstrated that eating a vegan diet is better for my health and for the environment, I'll swap. But it cannot.
You keep blathering about stuff you know nothing about. You have hypotheses. You may know what has worked for you over a short period of time. But you really don't know anything general. Humans make lousy experimental subjects, and there's little good research on nutrition. Your assertions about what happened and why it happened thousands of years ago have little value. You can't prove anything, and you can hardly even support it. Please stop.
 
Given how most people on this forum are perfectly comfortable with the concept of Big Oil, I struggle to understand why you can't accept Big Food and Big Pharma too. Vegan is their new big thing and they're winning the battle I'm afraid.
I'm sorry but this is so far divorced from reality you come off sounding like a conspiracy nut. The equivalent would be saying Big Auto and Big Oil are behind the push for EV's, it's the exact opposite of the truth. Big Food and Big Pharma are the ones who want continued factory meat farming which demands more GMO mono crops for feed and more drugs for unhealthy factory animals and the people who feed upon them. You think it's Big Broccoli and Big Apple pushing vegetables and fruits?

A disclaimer as always: if it can be demonstrated that eating a vegan diet is better for my health and for the environment, I'll swap. But it cannot.

It has been, repeatedly, but you choose to ignore all the evidence.
 
You keep blathering about stuff you know nothing about. You have hypotheses. You may know what has worked for you over a short period of time. But you really don't know anything general. Humans make lousy experimental subjects, and there's little good research on nutrition. Your assertions about what happened and why it happened thousands of years ago have little value. You can't prove anything, and you can hardly even support it. Please stop.

Well, as you said, there's little good research on nutrition. Which is why we need to look at our ancestral diet and basic human nutritional needs and biochemistry.

And likewise, your final point works the other way around too - you cannot prove anything. So I'm asking, kindly, vegans to stop pushing their ideology.
 
I'm sorry but this is so far divorced from reality you come off sounding like a conspiracy nut. The equivalent would be saying Big Auto and Big Oil are behind the push for EV's, it's the exact opposite of the truth. Big Food and Big Pharma are the ones who want continued factory meat farming which demands more GMO mono crops for feed and more drugs for unhealthy factory animals and the people who feed upon them. You think it's Big Broccoli and Big Apple pushing vegetables and fruits?



It has been, repeatedly, but you choose to ignore all the evidence.

There is zero evidence that a vegan diet is better for humans than a meat-based diet. Again, given that we evolved as meat eaters and given that a vegan diet is nutritionally incomplete, unless chosen with great care and supplemented, I take the stance that animal-based foods are vital for long-term health.

Nutritional and greenhouse gas impacts of removing animals from US agriculture

We diverged from the rest of the apes around 2.6 million tears ago: Evidence for Meat-Eating by Early Humans | Learn Science at Scitable

Like you, I can dig-up studies all day to support my stance.

Regarding the "conspiracy", you seem to be wilfully ignorant about the history of the food industry and how we arrived at the current food-pyramid. Once again, I suggest you educate yourself and read Nina Teicholz's book. This isn't a pro-meat book, but rather an exposé of how we got here. Hint - it's all to do with money, politics, egos and power. Zero to do with health needs.

https://www.amazon.com/Big-Fat-Surp...&qid=1530082289&sr=8-1&keywords=nina+teicholz

A bit of Gary Taubes might help you too: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Calorie...rd_wg=9hJQO&psc=1&refRID=9C245K2M3PCXPGKKQJMD

And Jason Fung's Obesity Code is also worth-while: https://www.amazon.com/Obesity-Code...TF8&qid=1530082472&sr=1-1&keywords=jason+fung

You'll find all these books have links to the studies and articles they reference.
 
You keep blathering about stuff you know nothing about. You have hypotheses. You may know what has worked for you over a short period of time. But you really don't know anything general. Humans make lousy experimental subjects, and there's little good research on nutrition. Your assertions about what happened and why it happened thousands of years ago have little value. You can't prove anything, and you can hardly even support it. Please stop.

yes humans make lousy experimental subjects.

perhaps 84 million US adults—that’s 1 in 3—have prediabetes About Prediabetes & Type 2 Diabetes | Diabetes | NDPP
and another 29 million have diabetes CDC Press Releases
but before people get prediabtes, there is metabolic syndrome, the trending of rising insulin to steady blood glucose.

Americans have changed their food habits to follow the guidelines, resulting in a profound level of chronic disease. where will it end?
It is tragic for Americans to have to be issued a blood glucose monitor before they can find out the truth for themselves.


>JRP3
farmland that transitions from cropping to grazing have tripled soil carbon Emerging land use practices rapidly increase soil organic matter
upload_2018-6-30_23-39-42.png


and if they were to achieve New Zealand levels of soil carbon, it would be a 10x increase of soil carbon.
(so do the right thing, and let lyanthrope enjoy that free range steak)
 
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Fertiliser... You realise this is mostly bone-meal and dried blood they use, right?

Wrong, most large scale farming uses mineral based fertilizer.

Herbicide... FFS!

Not used in organic farming.


Or not:

While there are ranchers around the world marveling at the success stories being shared about holistic management, researchers, scientists and academics are not so quick to agree.

Most say there is just not enough scientific evidence to confirm the results.

I'm all for letting bison roam the grasslands as they used to, wild and free, before we started killing them on a massive scale.
 
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Regarding the idea that meat is the preferred fuel for the body, why do almost no elite athletes eat only meat? Professional athletes look for any possible edge they can gain, including some injecting themselves with harmful chemicals if they provide a performance boost. You can be sure athletes have experimented with meat only diets and you can be sure if they were effective their use would be wide spread. Yet most athletes rely on carbohydrate intake as fuel for their performance. In this unrelated video about cheat meals professional trainer Jeff Cavalier who works with pro athletes makes the statement around the 5 minute mark "My athletes eat carbohydrates, they have to"