Volt meters for troubleshooting

[Docfxit]

It seems like it would be nice to permanently install a few volt meters when I get solar installed to be able to troubleshoot the system when it has a problem. I'm sure the experts on here will know better than me.
It seems like it would be nice to have a volt meter:
1. On Grid power.
2. After the cut off switch.
3. Between the panels and the gateway.
4. On the output/input of each powerwall.
5. On the output of the gateway to the house.
6. On the line to the Car wall charger.
7. I'm guessing experts on here might be able to add to this list.

I'm thinking it would be nice to have all the volt meters together in one spot inside the garage with labels describing what they normally should be. That way one quick glance would show where a problem is.

When there is no power it's an upsetting time. Partly because of the unknown.
Does anyone else see this as a nice thing to have?
Does anyone see a problem with this idea?
I realize most people never experience a problem. If there is a problem it would be comforting to me to see it quickly without me getting a meter out and remembering where to test.
Does anyone have a suggestion as to what display meter to buy?

 

[Matt-FL]

It's an interesting concept. I think I'm most stumped on the logistical part of it. The quickest way would be to use CT connectors on those locations, but all of those items on your list are not typically all centrally located at the same spot. So you have to run long cables between, which may affect the CT values (signal loss).

For grid power, I am using an Emporia Vue. That helps me determine not only voltage, but wattage on each individual circuit. Very helpful for quickly determining what the heck is using so much power (water heater? 5 Ton AC? perpetual motion clothes dryer?). However, that doesn't help me determine or quickly diagnose where I have lost power in a loss event. And on that note, I suppose you'd have to run these on a backup battery of some sort.

You might be able to put CT connectors inside your gateway for the Powerwalls, if it will fit. Pretty tight in my case. Just FYI, there isn't a separate input/output on the Powerwalls, it is just a power reversal on the same cables, along with a control cable set. I'm sure someone will ping me on not knowing the actual scientific term.... Being able to individually monitor each Powerwall could provide some interesting data, and let you know if one or more isn't functioning properly (from reading other posts, a single Powerwall not working doesn't always flag an error in the app).

I'm not sure which meters would work. I have purchased a few DC hall effect meters to monitor my solar legs (for my pre- PW+ inverters), but I haven't had the time to complete the design and install them.

Would be interesting to hear other's thoughts as well.

 

[Tazzman]

You might be able to put CT connectors inside your gateway for the Powerwalls, if it will fit. Pretty tight in my case. Just FYI, there isn't a separate input/output on the Powerwalls, it is just a power reversal on the same cables, along with a control cable set. I'm sure someone will ping me on not knowing the actual scientific term.... Being able to individually monitor each Powerwall could provide some interesting data, and let you know if one or more isn't functioning properly (from reading other posts, a single Powerwall not working doesn't always flag an error in the app).

For the Powerwall's feed I would call it bidirectional. I just wanted to point out that on the Vue CT's only the Mains are capable of reading bidirectional and the smaller CT's only read in one direction. I wanted to monitor each of my Powerwalls but I didn't think it was worth having a separate Vue for each Powerwall and I would still miss out on the solar readings from the Powerwall+.

 

[Docfxit]

In my case, I'd like them to install everything inside my garage. The incoming power panel is directly on the other side of the same wall. It's not even one foot away. So it wouldn't be a long distance to run any wires. I'm not sure what the Vue costs. Just in playing around I found some

2 Pcs 200A High Precision Watt Meter Power Analyzer Battery Consumption Performance Monitor Amp Meter Monitor with Backlight Digital LCD Screen for RC Solar Voltage Current Power Discharge Amount​

For $12 each.

Amazon.com

I'm not sure they would do. And they show volts, watts and amps. I don't think I need all that information for every connection. The app on the phone shows production really nicely. I'm thinking if I'm not getting production or if there is no power to the house with a quick glance at these meters I could get an idea of what might be failing or needs resetting. If I could see volts only it would give me a clue if it normally showed volts and now it shows nothing that would tell me maybe that's where I need to look for a problem. It seems like it would be a lot better to get them wired in during the install to make it neater.

 

[Tazzman]

In my case, I'd like them to install everything inside my garage. The incoming power panel is directly on the other side of the same wall. It's not even one foot away. So it wouldn't be a long distance to run any wires. I'm not sure what the Vue costs. Just in playing around I found some

2 Pcs 200A High Precision Watt Meter Power Analyzer Battery Consumption Performance Monitor Amp Meter Monitor with Backlight Digital LCD Screen for RC Solar Voltage Current Power Discharge Amount​

For $12 each.

Amazon.com

I'm not sure they would do. And they show volts, watts and amps. I don't think I need all that information for every connection. The app on the phone shows production really nicely. I'm thinking if I'm not getting production or if there is no power to the house with a quick glance at these meters I could get an idea of what might be failing or needs resetting. If I could see volts only it would give me a clue if it normally showed volts and now it shows nothing that would tell me maybe that's where I need to look for a problem. It seems like it would be a lot better to get them wired in during the install to make it neater.

I don't see how the item you linked to would be of any use they go between a battery and a load to take readings. The Powerwalls connect through AC and at least 30 amps.

 

[Docfxit]

You're right. Thanks for catching that. How about this one?

Amazon.com

It's $23 each.

I think this is AC only.

 

[Matt-FL]

I'd stay away from anything in-line, as you will be adding additional points of failure and possible warranty issues.

For your last link, I'd suggest the 'pro' - change that to 'Pro+' version, as you won't have to disconnect any wires to install it (clip-on CT vs ring).

I would not expect Tesla to install these for you. It will be something you do after the install. I'd personally suggest waiting until after PTO inspections.

 

[Tazzman]

I agree with Matt but I like the Vue for the information you get in the app although it does not give you voltage readings it shows the wattage/current used.

 

[Docfxit]

The Vue looks great. I currently have a Sense. I'm not looking to monitor the wattage. I'm thinking how frustrating it is when something stops working. Most connections show that immediately by monitoring the voltage. Pro+ does look good if I wanted to include the wattage. I'm thinking more troubleshooting than monitoring. Sometimes people don't know the system isn't producing until they get the next bill. Maybe I don't need to worry about this until after I get it installed and I see what Homeseer will be able to monitor for me.

 

[Matt-FL]

I know the Pro+ has additional monitoring items that are not really needed, but I was looking at the different CT connection as the primary reason for suggesting it. The others have a doughnut reader, that you'd have to disconnect a wire and pull it through the center, then reconnect. The Pro+ has a clip-on, much simpler to install and less intrusive to put on and take off.

 

[Docfxit]

If I get that one, I would defiantly get the Pro+. Even if I don't need it for troubleshooting it would be interesting to see the wattage.

 

[Docfxit]

@Matt-FL If you loose grid power does your Emporia Vue work? I'm thinking with these volt meters, if I loose grid power I would still see voltage from the powerwalls, panels and the inverter.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Tazzman]

@Matt-FL If you loose grid power does your Emporia Vue work? I'm thinking with these volt meters, if I loose grid power I would still see voltage from the powerwalls, panels and the inverter.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The Emporia must have power for it to work but it still works if the Powerwalls are supplying the power to it. The same goes for your volt meters and unless they are strategically placed where the line from the grid can be monitored and that part of the line loses power when the grid goes down then that meter would be dead. Most of the time this information is in the Tesla app and unless you are getting more information you have to decide if it is worth the time and effort. The Emporia can give you real time information on what is using power which I find to be useful information so I have 2 of them hooked in to my electrical system to give me the information I wanted.

 

[BGbreeder]

It seems like it would be nice to permanently install a few volt meters when I get solar installed to be able to troubleshoot the system when it has a problem. I'm sure the experts on here will know better than me.
It seems like it would be nice to have a volt meter:
1. On Grid power.
2. After the cut off switch.
3. Between the panels and the gateway.
4. On the output/input of each powerwall.
5. On the output of the gateway to the house.
6. On the line to the Car wall charger.
7. I'm guessing experts on here might be able to add to this list.

I'm thinking it would be nice to have all the volt meters together in one spot inside the garage with labels describing what they normally should be. That way one quick glance would show where a problem is.

When there is no power it's an upsetting time. Partly because of the unknown.
Does anyone else see this as a nice thing to have?
Does anyone see a problem with this idea?
I realize most people never experience a problem. If there is a problem it would be comforting to me to see it quickly without me getting a meter out and remembering where to test.
Does anyone have a suggestion as to what display meter to buy?

Your Tesla app will give you most of this information.

If you really want meters, I suspect that you are going to need a way to install them that meets code. I highly doubt that any of the $30 meters are eligible to be installed in a service panel. I would guess that you will need additional boxes elsewhere for your meters, and that a separate box is highly desirable in the event one of those inexpensive meters happens to fail/burn up.

As a solar / Powerwall installation is not inexpensive, and the warranties are therefore reasonably valuable, I would think long and hard about touching anything that one of your vendors might later claim to be the root cause of a future issue.

All the best,

BG

 

[brkaus]

CTs will measure current. the wires leading from them are low voltage. They do need a voltage reference to actually calculate power.

If you are measuring volts, you either need something that can read and report remotely or high voltage wires running to a single panel. I don’t know that would be done safely.

Do these things have so many problems that this would be necessary?

 

[Docfxit]

@BGbreeder Thank you for the information. I was not thinking of putting these inside any service panel.
The Tesla app is great for everyday monitoring information. I'm wanting these for troubleshooting point of failure. When the lights go out or when I get a text from my Homeseer saying something isn't right, I would like to walk into my garage where everything is installed and get a good idea of what is wrong instead of scratching my head and calling Tesla or my installer or SCE to try to figure out what the problem is. When something happens it seems like it's either after 5pm or it's on a weekend or it's 3am. If I can help it I'd like to reduce the hours on the phone trying to find someone that knows how to figure it out. I realize this doesn't happen often. And maybe never. I would rather not have to get out my volt meter and start poking around trying to figure out where the problem is. I was thinking of getting a metal box and mounting it on the same wall as all the equipment and mounting these so the displays will be showing.
I definitely don't want to violate any code or endanger any equipment that a vendor has so graciously installed for me for a large sum of money. I am hoping I can accomplish this while being up-to-code and not violating any vendor warranties or inspector dislikes. If I can't I won't do it. That is one of the reasons I started this thread on here so I could get opinions like yourself to help me navigate this in a safe and reasonable manner. While I would like to create this panel of meters, I would hope that I can get a licensed electrician to install it properly. I doubt the Tesla installer would or should install it for me. I'm guessing the inspectors would have a field day with it just because it's different even though it will be up to code. I'm guessing I will have to hire an electrician after PTO to get it installed for me.
I am not interested in putting this together to replace the Tesla app for monitoring purposes. I would like this for troubleshooting. The Tesla app is great for monitoring. I am all ears for great suggestions on anything to do with this. Including better meters, installation techniques, timing or anything else. Thank you all for your input.

 

[Docfxit]

I'm hoping these things don't have "so many problems". I'm hoping there are thousands of installations out there that are running with no problems, and the very few problems I see on TMC and a couple other boards are the exception. To me it's kind of like a car. There are millions of cars that never have an accident and never get stuck on the side of the road for some reason. That doesn't mean I don't have a little insurance, a few tools, a little water and some extra dog food in my car at all times. I like to be prepared just in case. (Yes, I take my dog with me. The dog food is for him just in case you were wondering)

 

[cwied]

CTs will measure current. the wires leading from them are low voltage. They do need a voltage reference to actually calculate power.

If you are measuring volts, you either need something that can read and report remotely or high voltage wires running to a single panel. I don’t know that would be done safely.

Do these things have so many problems that this would be necessary?

"CT" in the sense of how the term is used here generally refers to "current transformer," not "current transducer". This means that it actually measures both voltage and current. The Neurio inside my Tesla Gateway reports both voltage and current from each CT (as well as other stats like frequency).

 

[yblaser]

"CT" in the sense of how the term is used here generally refers to "current transformer," not "current transducer". This means that it actually measures both voltage and current. The Neurio inside my Tesla Gateway reports both voltage and current from each CT (as well as other stats like frequency).

The current transformer only measures current and needs a separate voltage tap. That is why it is important that your CT and voltage tap are measuring the same leg of the split phase. For example see this link specific to setting up the Neurio:

| Tesla

service.tesla.com

 

[brkaus]

"CT" in the sense of how the term is used here generally refers to "current transformer," not "current transducer". This means that it actually measures both voltage and current. The Neurio inside my Tesla Gateway reports both voltage and current from each CT (as well as other stats like frequency).

The neurino has more than just a CT. It’s also monitoring voltage. It does that separately.

A CT is a specific device that will generate a current relative to the main current such that the main current can be measured.

https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/transformer/current-transformer.html