NigelM
Recovering Member
I'm not taking any side but wouldn't it be the case that the inverter manufacturer should have liability if their product damaged your car?
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tomsax
Member
These inverters are designed to run off of a standard 12V car battery. I don't see how they are liable for Tesla's implementation of simulating a standard 12V supply.
tomsax
Member
On a possibly related subject, we have a 12V air compressor for inflating our tires. I've been hesitant to plug that into the Roadster's 12V socket, knowing there's not a giant 12V battery in there. In view of this story, I'm even more wary of that. In other cars, we've had it blow the fuse. We now have an air compressor that plugs into the wall.
Has anyone tried using an air compressor from the Roadster's 12V socket?
Has anyone tried using an air compressor from the Roadster's 12V socket?
Yes, I have a small 12V compressor intended for inflating car tires. I've used it many times with no problems whatsoever.
No electronics in the thing; it's just a little (audibly) noisy DC motor.
Yes, I've used the one that came with my Mercedes a couple of times, no problem. (The parking position of the Roadster vis-a-vis the bicycles makes it more convenient to use the roadster...)
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
If it didn't cause any problems before it shouldn't in the future. I can't imagine any issues from a straight DC device as long as it is within the ratings of the socket.
S-2000 Roadster
#1244
Hey, Zack, what is the amperage rating on that AC inverter that you used? Also, how much current were you pulling from it at 120 V AC when things went bad?
Edit: You might as well mention the model number of the AC inverter so the rest of us know to stay away from that one specifically (if not all inverters). Sorry you had to be the guinea pig, but I seem to recall that I already knew not to plug an inverter in...
Edit: You might as well mention the model number of the AC inverter so the rest of us know to stay away from that one specifically (if not all inverters). Sorry you had to be the guinea pig, but I seem to recall that I already knew not to plug an inverter in...
Sigh. Here's the scary thing. I used that inverter for months, off and on. I purchased it a while before I used it on a camping trip and left it plugged in most of the time (although it would occasionally get unplugged by itself and I'd discover that sometime later and plug it back in). At the time that the car failed, it was plugged in but the power switch was turned off and I hadn't been using it for a few weeks. I didn't like the sound of the fan running all the time.
It's not like I plugged it in and it caused the failure. It's the kind of thing where I have to accept their claim that it produces this noise that's intolerable (and voltage spikes up to 19V). I asked them to find another inverter that wouldn't produce damaging noise. They tried some that were locally available and none were satisfactory. I asked them if they tried using my inverter with a regular battery to see if perhaps the Tesla itself was causing the noise and spikes in reaction to the inverter, and I haven't heard back on that yet.
I honestly don't believe that they understand what's going on. If they did, they'd have something in the circuit to minimize noise from these types of devices. It's an 90W inverter that runs on its own battery. I don't know if it can produce 90W unless its own battery is charged up fully. There's a 12VDC jack on it for an external charger and the manual says that jack draws less than 2 amps. That makes me wonder just how much current the cigarette lighter connection draws. Obviously to get 90W out of the thing you'd need to put more than 90W into it, or else the battery inside has to be charged in order to get it to produce 90 watts. I purchased the unit at Radio Shack and nothing in the manual suggests in any way, shape, or form that it would cause noise, draw more than 125W, or more than 10 amps. For my purpose (charging small cameras and cell phones) it was perfect. I doubt I ever drew more than 10 or 20 watts total at any time. The fuse never blew. There were no other strange symptoms (unexplained ones) that occurred prior to the car suddenly refusing to start after a charge.
My personal belief: I don't think Tesla has any idea what caused the failure and they're blaming it on the inverter because it generates noise and alleged voltage spikes, but the sad fact is, all switching supplies (modern dc/dc converters included) produce noise... so if noisy devices are going to cause problems in unpredictable ways after months of use, we're all in some pretty deep doo-doo if we choose to use that socket at all.
The model is Radio Shack 22-137 Enercell. The specs are available via pdf at the radioshack.com site. My model might be a slightly earlier one (I don't remember it having 3 leds) but it has fundamentally the same specs. There is no spec listed for the current it draws from the 12VDC lighter socket in the car. Which is also annoying.
Sigh again.
It's not like I plugged it in and it caused the failure. It's the kind of thing where I have to accept their claim that it produces this noise that's intolerable (and voltage spikes up to 19V). I asked them to find another inverter that wouldn't produce damaging noise. They tried some that were locally available and none were satisfactory. I asked them if they tried using my inverter with a regular battery to see if perhaps the Tesla itself was causing the noise and spikes in reaction to the inverter, and I haven't heard back on that yet.
I honestly don't believe that they understand what's going on. If they did, they'd have something in the circuit to minimize noise from these types of devices. It's an 90W inverter that runs on its own battery. I don't know if it can produce 90W unless its own battery is charged up fully. There's a 12VDC jack on it for an external charger and the manual says that jack draws less than 2 amps. That makes me wonder just how much current the cigarette lighter connection draws. Obviously to get 90W out of the thing you'd need to put more than 90W into it, or else the battery inside has to be charged in order to get it to produce 90 watts. I purchased the unit at Radio Shack and nothing in the manual suggests in any way, shape, or form that it would cause noise, draw more than 125W, or more than 10 amps. For my purpose (charging small cameras and cell phones) it was perfect. I doubt I ever drew more than 10 or 20 watts total at any time. The fuse never blew. There were no other strange symptoms (unexplained ones) that occurred prior to the car suddenly refusing to start after a charge.
My personal belief: I don't think Tesla has any idea what caused the failure and they're blaming it on the inverter because it generates noise and alleged voltage spikes, but the sad fact is, all switching supplies (modern dc/dc converters included) produce noise... so if noisy devices are going to cause problems in unpredictable ways after months of use, we're all in some pretty deep doo-doo if we choose to use that socket at all.
The model is Radio Shack 22-137 Enercell. The specs are available via pdf at the radioshack.com site. My model might be a slightly earlier one (I don't remember it having 3 leds) but it has fundamentally the same specs. There is no spec listed for the current it draws from the 12VDC lighter socket in the car. Which is also annoying.
Sigh again.
I believe that a number of owners have had switch pack problems. I believe it is one of the top failures. My 1.5 had the classic failures of bad PEM fan and bad switch pack within the first 4 months of ownership. After that, it was problem free...
Did you tell Tesla you were using an inverter? or did they analyze the switch pack failure and discover that voltage spikes caused the failure of the SP, prompting them to ask if you were using an inverter?
Link to said product:
Enercell 90W Portable AC Power Inverter : Power Inverters | RadioShack.com
http://www.radioshack.com/graphics/uc/rsk/Support/ProductManuals/2200137_PM_EN.pdf
I wonder what "one cycle" means...
1/60 of one second.
I received word this morning (Tesla people never sleep) that it will be covered under warranty under the strict condition that I never, ever connect any type of inverter to my 12VDC "lighter" outlet again. Included in the email was a highly specific comment about things you plug into the lighter outlet. Strictly speaking, DC-to-DC converters that fall within the wattage guidelines work just fine. They don't seem to produce the damaging noise that inverters do. So just to be clear, Tesla's position (as far as I understand at this point) is this: You may plug in any device whose output is pure DC as long as it doesn't exceed the limit of 125W or whatever the exact specification is at any given moment. Which means phone chargers and camera chargers and other DC/DC whatnots are just fine. However, if you plug in a device that has an AC outlet on it (namely an inverter), you risk damaging the switchpack. As of this moment, switchpacks cost $777 plus installation. I have no idea where Tesla came up with that particular number but it's certainly easy to remember as you hold an inverter in your hands and wonder whether or not to plug it in to your 12VDC socket.
I'm going to venture a guess that I am the last person who will ever get away with warranty coverage of inverter-related switchpack damage. An addendum is being drafted for the manual, as I understand. Be forewarned.
I'd like to say something. The person who contacted me from Tesla to tell me all of this in the middle of the night is one of the most interesting and inspiring people I've ever met. Aside from Elon himself, this man may be Tesla's greatest asset.
I received word this morning (Tesla people never sleep) that it will be covered under warranty under the strict condition that I never, ever connect any type of inverter to my 12VDC "lighter" outlet again. Included in the email was a highly specific comment about things you plug into the lighter outlet. Strictly speaking, DC-to-DC converters that fall within the wattage guidelines work just fine. They don't seem to produce the damaging noise that inverters do. So just to be clear, Tesla's position (as far as I understand at this point) is this: You may plug in any device whose output is pure DC as long as it doesn't exceed the limit of 125W or whatever the exact specification is at any given moment. Which means phone chargers and camera chargers and other DC/DC whatnots are just fine. However, if you plug in a device that has an AC outlet on it (namely an inverter), you risk damaging the switchpack. As of this moment, switchpacks cost $777 plus installation. I have no idea where Tesla came up with that particular number but it's certainly easy to remember as you hold an inverter in your hands and wonder whether or not to plug it in to your 12VDC socket.
I'm going to venture a guess that I am the last person who will ever get away with warranty coverage of inverter-related switchpack damage. An addendum is being drafted for the manual, as I understand. Be forewarned.
I'd like to say something. The person who contacted me from Tesla to tell me all of this in the middle of the night is one of the most interesting and inspiring people I've ever met. Aside from Elon himself, this man may be Tesla's greatest asset.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Very glad to hear of this resolution. Good for you for sticking with it, good for Tesla for being willing to rethink their position.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
But bad for Tesla using a system in a $110K+ vehicle that can't function as well as those in econoboxes.
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Nik
Got there eventually :-)
Pleased to hear the good news. Does the above comment bear warrant some further explanation (hint: yes!), perhaps in another thread?
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