What's your predicted loyalty to Tesla whenever replacing current car?

[whitex]

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GM made some trade-offs that seem to be accepted by you.

Volt has the same firmware/features and the battery reserves 35% so that you cannot use it. Meaning, you paid for a lot more battery but get a much smaller fraction of the range. Great strategy for customers, just plug and forget, the change in capacity is hidden from you. It just means the car is heavier and lower range than would otherwise be possible with allowing the use of 90+% of the battery capacity like Tesla does.

Our 2013 Model S has only lost 5% of it's original range, charges identical to new and has updated firmware and features.
Frankly, we've enjoyed having access to full capacity of our battery vs 65%, with a small cost in 5% degradation.
I prefer Tesla's trade off. Some would prefer GM's.

Audi e-trons are notable for taking similar approach as GM. Their range is less than Tesla for the same price. But like I said, some prefer that approach.

Now imagine buying a used Tesla and having no idea how much the previous owners charged to 100% or how often they supercharged. Your car could get nerfed in months, or maybe the very next update.

Most people don't even realize that this great 412 mile range Tesla is advertising for new Model S Long Range can be nerfed down to 288 miles a week later and Tesla tell you it's normal because their fine print says they only warranty 70% of original advertised battery capacity. That, and the range is on the ultra optimistic side as compared to other manufacturer's EV's rated range.

 

[Vzxyz]

What’s wrong with the headlights? They’re perfectly fine on my ‘15 S

Early models possibly had HID lamps (not sure when they changed). The newer ones have led lights which are piss poor for night visibility. Even the IIHS gives them a poor rating. I rarely take my Tesla for night drives. Now the model 3 and Y have the updated lights which are better.

the white eyebrow DRL strip basically turns yellow and partially goes out after being out in the elements after a few months. Makes the car look ugly. Im sure if we wait long enough, they may go out completely. I’ve had the lights replaced 4 times

@Ronl
I’ve driven German car before and I agree with some of your statements. However, i have yet to replace lights on any of them within the first 8 years of ownership.

 

[RonI]

What’s wrong with the headlights? They’re perfectly fine on my ‘15 S

I don't know. Mine are 5 years old and with the exception of a small scratch I made they look new. There's a lot of negativity about Tesla on this Tesla Club site. Appears some trolls with too much time on their hands are spreading FUD.

 

[RonI]

.

Now imagine buying a used Tesla and having no idea how much the previous owners charged to 100% or how often they supercharged. Your car could get nerfed in months, or maybe the very next update.

Most people don't even realize that this great 412 mile range Tesla is advertising for new Model S Long Range can be nerfed down to 288 miles a week later and Tesla tell you it's normal because their fine print says they only warranty 70% of original advertised battery capacity. That, and the range is on the ultra optimistic side as compared to other manufacturer's EV's rated range.

Imagine buying a car that never got an oil change, used low quality fuel, driven on the track and aftermarket brakes installed. I could go on for hours. Point is, used cars can suck regardless of who made them. At least Tesla has a better than nearly all, 8 year/100-150k mile battery & powertrain warranty, and leads in resale value.

 

[RonI]

I LOVE MY 2017 Model S... so much so I am taking great care of it (still looks brand new). Want to get 8-10 years out of it.
But if I do need to buy another car...

It' won't be a Tesla. Why? Simple, the new interiors suck. I love my model S, maybe I am old school, but I like having an interior that makes driving easy, comfortable. I believe the competition will have credible electric cars with real interiors that suit me, and hopefully they will move towards upgradeable software as well like Tesla.

But I cannot handle the Plaid interior, sparse, empty... not my style.

That's why there are many manufacturers... for now.

 

[RonI]

Early models possibly had HID lamps (not sure when they changed). The newer ones have led lights which are piss poor for night visibility. Even the IIHS gives them a poor rating. I rarely take my Tesla for night drives. Now the model 3 and Y have the updated lights which are better.

the white eyebrow DRL strip basically turns yellow and partially goes out after being out in the elements after a few months. Makes the car look ugly. Im sure if we wait long enough, they may go out completely. I’ve had the lights replaced 4 times

@Ronl
I’ve driven German car before and I agree with some of your statements. However, i have yet to replace lights on any of them within the first 8 years of ownership.

Headlight lens discoloration happens on nearly all vehicles today. Especially in warm sunny climates. We replace headlights, lenses or restore lenses every week. BMWs and MINIs parked outside will look bad in 3-5 years, can't speak for the other's timelines but expect similar.

 

[RonI]

But don't tell the fanboys lol, they are still set on the fact its the safest car in the world when the headlights on my 2015 Kia Optima blow it out of the water and those are just plain old HID headlights

Why are you on TMC?

 

[RonI]

Replace “Prius Prime” with “RAV4 Prime” and most of your arguments evaporate.

The only part of that car I like is the battery range; 42 miles.
The only thing evaporating is demand for Toyota vehicles.

 

[Altes]

My Model Y is a pleasure to drive and own. Almost 4k miles and no issues. Definitely buying another Tesla!

Wow, 4K miles thats certainly a long term test....hahahahahaha wait till warranty expires....

 

[RonI]

Wow, 4K miles thats certainly a long term test....hahahahahaha wait till warranty expires....

Why are you here on TMC?

 

[pabla]

Interesting I am having this convo on TMC. "complex parts" mostly their engines and transmissions, but that's a bad thing. I replace those parts every day. Nothing complex about a plastic engine oil pan that uses a plastic drain plug. They are making the worst cars in their long history. Designed to be thrown away at 100k miles. Google N20, N63, N55 engine problems. I just finished replacing a N63 today 50k miles, $14k later(with a massively reduced price on the long block). BMW is staring down 3 massive class-actions at the same time is going to be hurt big from heavy depreciation and over leasing their fleet. 5 years from now BMW and the rest will be the little guys. Teslas are not perfect but overall they are way better than the rest. BTW I still have my 1st set of headlights on my '16 S. They look like new with the exception of where I scratched one.

Well let’s talk about the 85 kW battery’s and how many owners are running into issues with those? How about that member that recently paid 14k and got a pack that had the same degraded range as their old pack. How about the class action law suit happening for those said battery packs where owners will be getting paid 16k each if it goes through? Let’s not get started with the false advertising with the P85D’s HP numbers. Let alone Tesla’s reliability their business practices are scummy and you have no option basically if they throw you under the bus, while with privately owned dealerships you’re likely to find one that will help you out since they’re all independently owned. Don’t get delusional those big brands aren’t going anywhere, they know how to treat their customers and create great cars. You talk about BMW a lot, how about talk about how great of the car the new M5 is. Explain how Tesla is “a lot better”? Please don’t say things like they have OTA updates, autopilot blah blah OTA has added more bugs in recent updates than anything else, AP is good but others have caught up. What else?

You may be lucky with your headlights but go through the many posts and threads about owners going through multiple replacements ones.

 

[pabla]

Why are you on TMC?

Because I owned 2 model S’ you clearly can’t have a level headed conversation. If the brands so great what’s the need to defend it then?

 

[ucmndd]

The only part of that car I like is the battery range; 42 miles.
The only thing evaporating is demand for Toyota vehicles.

Yes, reclaiming the title of largest automaker in the world last year is certainly indicative of “evaporating demand.”

Toyota beats Volkswagen to become world's No.1 car seller in 2020

Toyota overtook Volkswagen in sales last year and became top car seller in 2020.

www.cnbc.com

You know you can state opinions without flatly making stuff up…

 

[pabla]

Yes, reclaiming the title of largest automaker in the world last year is certainly indicative of “evaporating demand.”

Toyota beats Volkswagen to become world's No.1 car seller in 2020

Toyota overtook Volkswagen in sales last year and became top car seller in 2020.

www.cnbc.com

You know you can state opinions without flatly making stuff up…

They just joined yesterday, seems like they have a lot of reading to do lol

 

[RonI]

Yes, reclaiming the title of largest automaker in the world last year is certainly indicative of “evaporating demand.”

Toyota beats Volkswagen to become world's No.1 car seller in 2020

Toyota overtook Volkswagen in sales last year and became top car seller in 2020.

www.cnbc.com

You know you can state opinions without flatly making stuff up…

Wow, That's some good cherry picking. Toyota's 2020 sales were down over 10% but VWs were down even more so Toyota wins! Come on man...

 

[RonI]

They just joined yesterday, seems like they have a lot of reading to do lol

Yes, I did just join. I have had my S for a while now and felt I should join a Tesla club after I canceled my BMW car club of America membership after 25 years. So does that make me new? I have been in the auto business for over 30 years, I will go toe to toe anytime

 

[cduzz]

Absolutely, companies do push the limits, going into unethical territory, but Tesla just takes it to a whole new level. The big guys usually end up paying too, using your examples - GM settled all claims for the ignition, VW paid billions in reparations and bought back the cars at almost new value. If Tesla offers to buy my P85D at the same % of MSRP that VW bought back the diesel cars back, then it would be comparable (VW lied about emissions, Tesla lied about hp by a huge margin even though they knew they had a safety pyro-fuse which would cut the power way before reaching the advertised number, lied about battery capacity when new, nerfed the batteries later without consent, etc).

PS> What's your source on the GM facts you cited? What I found here is that GM did issue a recall, and 124 deaths does not constitute "hundreds" as you claim, unless those are Tesla/Elon "special hundreds" (i.e. exaggerated for hype) like Tesla hp.

I'm not sure if you went to Phillip Morris University and go to church at Exxon, but where I'm from the death of some hundred(s) of people is a bigger deal than making up horsepower numbers. (Do you mean net or gross horsepower? Dyno Horsepower? What kind of horse?). It's also a bigger deal than nerfing the car (aka stealing). Killing people is also theft, but of something a bit more valuable. I suppose you could argue that point, but I dare you to do it face to face with Amber Rose's dad.

GM knew about the flaw for years, and fixed it, but the fixed part has the same part number as the faulty part. That doesn't happen by accident. That's premeditated coverup.

GM sold these cars world wide and that 124 is verified dead in the US. So yeah, I'll comfortably say that this killed hundreds of people.

They did eventually perform a recall after they were caught lying about the problem, for 13 years, and the scope of the problem. So they don't get bonus points (and neither does VW) for fixing it after being caught lying and cheating.

A comparable hypothetical tesla flaw may be if they knew about the battery issues and did not fix it and tens (hundreds?) of people died in house fires because their cars caught fire and killed them in their sleep. Or if tens / hundreds of teslas had suspension components that randomly broke and the cars went out of control and crashed.

Now, at this point tesla has the means and some obligation to actually fix these problems, and they may eventually be told to fix the problem by some governmental organization, but as far as the scale of ethical lapse, what GM did is comparable to willfully driving drunk.

 

[ucmndd]

Wow, That's some good cherry picking. Toyota's 2020 sales were down over 10% but VWs were down even more so Toyota wins! Come on man...

Yes, when a global pandemic causes the entire industry to decline 22%, only losing 10% and becoming the #1 manufacturer in the world is an unqualified success, and anybody even pretending to practice impartial judgment couldn't quantify that as "evaporating demand".

Led by US, global auto sales expected to plummet 22% in 2020 due to coronavirus

The coronavirus pandemic continues to take its toll on the global auto industry as plants remain shuttered and consumers remain sheltered.

www.cnbc.com

 

[RonI]

Well let’s talk about the 85 kW battery’s and how many owners are running into issues with those? How about that member that recently paid 14k and got a pack that had the same degraded range as their old pack. How about the class action law suit happening for those said battery packs where owners will be getting paid 16k each if it goes through? Let’s not get started with the false advertising with the P85D’s HP numbers. Let alone Tesla’s reliability their business practices are scummy and you have no option basically if they throw you under the bus, while with privately owned dealerships you’re likely to find one that will help you out since they’re all independently owned. Don’t get delusional those big brands aren’t going anywhere, they know how to treat their customers and create great cars. You talk about BMW a lot, how about talk about how great of the car the new M5 is. Explain how Tesla is “a lot better”? Please don’t say things like they have OTA updates, autopilot blah blah OTA has added more bugs in recent updates than anything else, AP is good but others have caught up. What else?

You may be lucky with your headlights but go through the many posts and threads about owners going through multiple replacements ones.

M5? Great example, Thanks. $120k vehicle that burns oil at a rate(1 qt every 500 miles) that's acceptable to BMW but not to any smart person. They blow rod bearings rendering the engine destroyed and $35k to replace it. This car is completely stupid. Super expensive brakes (2500 per axle)that wear out every 35k miles, Slow compared to my car (My '16 P100D destroys the M5 in a drag race and I can seat 7!), poor gas mileage, heavy, and super expensive to maintain. Has a nice interior though

A common story, 29,000 miles, oil condition sensor(measures oil level) goes bad and give zero notice of this, the vehicle does not have a dipstick to check oil level. Oil reaches damaging level within the miles recommended between oil changes and voilà. Anyone who buys one new is rich enough not to care about this because they will get rid of it by 25k miles. From there it's a cliff of depreciation and a mountain of expenses.

 

[RonI]

Yes, when a global pandemic causes the entire industry to decline 22%, only losing 10% and becoming the #1 manufacturer in the world is an unqualified success, and anybody even pretending to practice impartial judgment couldn't quantify that as "evaporating demand".

Led by US, global auto sales expected to plummet 22% in 2020 due to coronavirus

The coronavirus pandemic continues to take its toll on the global auto industry as plants remain shuttered and consumers remain sheltered.

www.cnbc.com

Tesla sales were up over 50% while "the entire industry to decline 22%". This is fundamental business, if your sales are up while everyone else's in your industry are down you have a long term winner.