What's your predicted loyalty to Tesla whenever replacing current car?

[SmartElectric]

I don't think there's any way you can claim with a straight face that maintaining ~100kw up to 80% SoC is a "far worse charge curve than any modern Tesla product".
I'll also offer in closing that your instinctive defense of Tesla appears to have completely missed the actual point of my post

Byorn Nyland has videos with detailed charging comparisons, 2021 Model 3/Y/S all beat 2021 Mustang Mach-e. So yeah, straight face.

Re: your original post, you made two points I keyed in on:

1/ whined about your S 75 not being suitable for road trips anymore which had a negative effect on your future purchase of a Tesla product
2/ looking at a Mach-e

^ I think I covered that comprehensively, while not being too much of a fanboi.
FYI that I have an F150 Lightning reservation and have owned many Ford's, and have owned non-Tesla EV's as well, so not truly a pure Tesla fanboi to be frank.

 

[Sbaimo]

That is exactly what I was thinking about whe I wrote that

 

[ucmndd]

Re: your original post, you made two points I keyed in on:

1/ whined about your S 75 not being suitable for road trips anymore which had a negative effect on your future purchase of a Tesla product
2/ looking at a Mach-e

^ I think I covered that comprehensively, while not being too much of a fanboi.

Right, which is to completely miss the actual point of my post: that Tesla’s superior charging network is no longer a competitive moat for me given their company practice of severely hampering the charging performance of aging cars and taking away original capabilities that I paid for.

The fact that you’ve called this personal opinion “whining” and heavily insinuated it’s my fault because I bought the wrong car says everything that needs to be said about your ability to be rational and impartial in this discussion.

 

[Needsdecaf]

A co-worker just walked in my office and said "my wife is considering a Tesla, what do you think"?

I told him: look at iD4, Mustang Mach E, or one of the upcoming Hyundai or Kia products.

So yeah, tells you where I am with Tesla right now.

 

[cucubits]

Pretty hard to consciously decide to go back to an ICE car but my next one 100% won't be a Tesla. Right now the Q4 e-tron looks like a great option, but who knows...

 

[whitex]

A co-worker just walked in my office and said "my wife is considering a Tesla, what do you think"?

I told him: look at iD4, Mustang Mach E, or one of the upcoming Hyundai or Kia products.

So yeah, tells you where I am with Tesla right now.

Let us know if the co-worker's wife buys a Tesla anyways. Elon might turn out to be a better salesman than you.

 

[Needsdecaf]

Let us know if the co-worker's wife buys a Tesla anyways. Elon might turn out to be a better salesman than you.

LOL, I'll take that bet 10/10 times.

 

[El joe]

Pretty hard to consciously decide to go back to an ICE car but my next one 100% won't be a Tesla. Right now the Q4 e-tron looks like a great option, but who knows...

That e-Tron does look really nice. If it just had some more range, it'd be a prime candidate to replace my Tesla in the future.

 

[cduzz]

That e-Tron does look really nice. If it just had some more range, it'd be a prime candidate to replace my Tesla in the future.

I suspect a lot of this is a case of "familiarity breeds contempt" -- we've got older cars with older car problems and we've been burned by various half baked (or 1/4th baked, or baked on a podcast) nonsense. Like, how the heck do you screw up door handles? Like seriously, they've been making door handles for 100 years, and you come up with some silly "is that a door handle or are you happy to see me?" crap. If you *really* want futuristic, just copy what Subaru did with the XT door handles, bro.

But anyhow, sorry about that semi-PTSD rant. Oh, and thank goodness my huge screen hasn't started leaking goo all over the inside of my car. Like yeah, that's a thing. Or maybe it's got alzheimer and it is turning yellow? At least my wheels haven't fallen off...

And then let's get to the things that actually affect us, like the various nerfings and gimpings visited upon us in the middle of the night with the sweet dulcet lullaby of "do you want to accept this update?" button that eventually harangues you into updating and oh hey where did my browser go, and why does it take me 2 hours to charge my car and and and.

So yeah, it's easy to be really angry at tesla.

But how much of these lessons are going to be falling onto everyone else's EVs also? It's really hard to go from 99.9% reliable to 99.999% reliable... I mean, the other companies will probably make working door handles, but the other stuff? The chubby bolt has already seen battery issues, and nissan with the leaf and the 9 bars (not an irish pub crawl, btw).

So it's reasonable to resent / not trust tesla, but I'm not sure I'd look at GM (and their ignition switch that'll kill you) or VW (and their let's lie on the test because everyone does it) or Ford (actually, I can't think of an ethical lapse on their part that's quite up to the GM coverup bar), or any other big company is actually a whole lot better.

All of them are going to screw you as hard as they can.

 

[SO16]

I suspect a lot of this is a case of "familiarity breeds contempt" -- we've got older cars with older car problems and we've been burned by various half baked (or 1/4th baked, or baked on a podcast) nonsense. Like, how the heck do you screw up door handles? Like seriously, they've been making door handles for 100 years, and you come up with some silly "is that a door handle or are you happy to see me?" crap. If you *really* want futuristic, just copy what Subaru did with the XT door handles, bro.

But anyhow, sorry about that semi-PTSD rant. Oh, and thank goodness my huge screen hasn't started leaking goo all over the inside of my car. Like yeah, that's a thing. Or maybe it's got alzheimer and it is turning yellow? At least my wheels haven't fallen off...

And then let's get to the things that actually affect us, like the various nerfings and gimpings visited upon us in the middle of the night with the sweet dulcet lullaby of "do you want to accept this update?" button that eventually harangues you into updating and oh hey where did my browser go, and why does it take me 2 hours to charge my car and and and.

So yeah, it's easy to be really angry at tesla.

But how much of these lessons are going to be falling onto everyone else's EVs also? It's really hard to go from 99.9% reliable to 99.999% reliable... I mean, the other companies will probably make working door handles, but the other stuff? The chubby bolt has already seen battery issues, and nissan with the leaf and the 9 bars (not an irish pub crawl, btw).

So it's reasonable to resent / not trust tesla, but I'm not sure I'd look at GM (and their ignition switch that'll kill you) or VW (and their let's lie on the test because everyone does it) or Ford (actually, I can't think of an ethical lapse on their part that's quite up to the GM coverup bar), or any other big company is actually a whole lot better.

All of them are going to screw you as hard as they can.

I still like the model S handles. Sure is a talking point when people first see a model S. They made some mistakes with early versions but the latest seems to be working better.

Will be interesting to see how other EVs hold up over the long term.

 

[whitex]

That e-Tron does look really nice. If it just had some more range, it'd be a prime candidate to replace my Tesla in the future.

Keep in mind Tesla Rated Range is really more on an Elon Range, like Elon horsepower (700 Elon hp = 463 real hp, because EV power counts for more), or Elon deadlines (by end of day means in a month, soon means in few years, by end of this year means in a decade or more). Somehow the Taycan with lower rated range manages to go farther than higher rated range Teslas when driving together in different fan/blogger/journalist tests.

 

[whitex]

I suspect a lot of this is a case of "familiarity breeds contempt" -- we've got older cars with older car problems and we've been burned by various half baked (or 1/4th baked, or baked on a podcast) nonsense. Like, how the heck do you screw up door handles? Like seriously, they've been making door handles for 100 years, and you come up with some silly "is that a door handle or are you happy to see me?" crap. If you *really* want futuristic, just copy what Subaru did with the XT door handles, bro.

But anyhow, sorry about that semi-PTSD rant. Oh, and thank goodness my huge screen hasn't started leaking goo all over the inside of my car. Like yeah, that's a thing. Or maybe it's got alzheimer and it is turning yellow? At least my wheels haven't fallen off...

And then let's get to the things that actually affect us, like the various nerfings and gimpings visited upon us in the middle of the night with the sweet dulcet lullaby of "do you want to accept this update?" button that eventually harangues you into updating and oh hey where did my browser go, and why does it take me 2 hours to charge my car and and and.

So yeah, it's easy to be really angry at tesla.

But how much of these lessons are going to be falling onto everyone else's EVs also? It's really hard to go from 99.9% reliable to 99.999% reliable... I mean, the other companies will probably make working door handles, but the other stuff? The chubby bolt has already seen battery issues, and nissan with the leaf and the 9 bars (not an irish pub crawl, btw).

So it's reasonable to resent / not trust tesla, but I'm not sure I'd look at GM (and their ignition switch that'll kill you) or VW (and their let's lie on the test because everyone does it) or Ford (actually, I can't think of an ethical lapse on their part that's quite up to the GM coverup bar), or any other big company is actually a whole lot better.

All of them are going to screw you as hard as they can.

I think you are missing the point. It's not that the car has faults. It's that Tesla will flat out refuse to admit the problems exist, and refuse to fix it. I've had many, many cars in my life. Tesla used to have the best service ever, even though they had more problems than most - an early adopter car, so expected. Then Model 3's rolled out and Elon started obsessing over the balance sheet (yea, he went mass production before Tesla cars stopped being an early adopter cars which cost a lot in service costs), and service went to worst of all I experienced. No other manufacturer ever told me "it's your fault your less than a year old $100K car's screen went yellow and it's not covered under warranty" or "I don't care if you have a video of your under warranty car malfunctioning, unless you can reproduce it here at the service center, it will be $175/hr to talk to us, not covered under warranty", or "oh, when we said motor horsepower, we really only meant the motor and not the rest of the car, if you take that motor and mount it in some other car you would get the advertised power, but the car we sold you would need 50% power boost to deliver what the motors need". Show me another manufacturer who charges thousands for an option which did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for the entire duration of a car's lease (anyone who leased a 2016 Tesla with FSD, paid every month for the ability to say they paid for it, nothing else).

The other guys have issues, but they don't come near the *sugar* Elon pulls, at least in my 30 years of owning all kinds of cars.

 

[cduzz]

I think you are missing the point. It's not that the car has faults. It's that Tesla will flat out refuse to admit the problems exist, and refuse to fix it. I've had many, many cars in my life. Tesla used to have the best service ever, even though they had more problems than most - an early adopter car, so expected. Then Model 3's rolled out and Elon started obsessing over the balance sheet (yea, he went mass production before Tesla cars stopped being an early adopter cars which cost a lot in service costs), and service went to worst of all I experienced. No other manufacturer ever told me "it's your fault your less than a year old $100K car's screen went yellow and it's not covered under warranty" or "I don't care if you have a video of your under warranty car malfunctioning, unless you can reproduce it here at the service center, it will be $175/hr to talk to us, not covered under warranty", or "oh, when we said motor horsepower, we really only meant the motor and not the rest of the car, if you take that motor and mount it in some other car you would get the advertised power, but the car we sold you would need 50% power boost to deliver what the motors need". Show me another manufacturer who charges thousands for an option which did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for the entire duration of a car's lease (anyone who leased a 2016 Tesla with FSD, paid every month for the ability to say they paid for it, nothing else).

The other guys have issues, but they don't come near the *sugar* Elon pulls, at least in my 30 years of owning all kinds of cars.

Right, bait and switch and reneging on implied promises. Both are pretty bad, and tesla's done both.

GM's installed cost-cut ignition switches that silently disconnected when jostled, resulting in the car turning off, sometimes when the driver's making a left turn or whatnot. BTW a car that's off won't have airbags deployed when you get t-boned in an intersection because your car turned off. GM "Fixed" the problem but didn't issue a recall or even change the part number on the part, meaning you couldn't track if you've got a good or bad one, and strongly implying that they knew of the problem and covered it up. Hundreds of people were killed by this. Parents who bought their kids their kids a safe new car for graduation, moms, etc. GM knew, and covered it up, and worked to avoid a recall.

VW (and audi / porsche) programmed their computers to lie to emissions testers.

I'm not trying to play some whataboutism game here, just pointing out that most car companies "push limits".

Tesla service centers are overloaded and they don't offer a fantastic service experience; tesla sells you a car shaped box of parts if you're foolish enough to buy in their end-of-quarter rush, they push the epa range estimates right up to the edge such that you'll likely never see the rated range on driving on planet earth. they've shown a willingness to OTA gimp cars and even though they've now got the means to fix the various gates they haven't.

Even all that included, I'd tell an EV curious person to buy a tesla because their cars are pretty good and because the supercharger experience is leagues better than any other network. Sure, there are fast charge networks out there, but until they prove they're actually taking it seriously I wouldn't rely on them. Crap like EA's taking a huge fleet of stations offline for labor day weekend isn't great. And, I'm pretty sure that a new tesla would be able to use any 3rd party network.

 

[Needsdecaf]

Right, bait and switch and reneging on implied promises. Both are pretty bad, and tesla's done both.

GM's installed cost-cut ignition switches that silently disconnected when jostled, resulting in the car turning off, sometimes when the driver's making a left turn or whatnot. BTW a car that's off won't have airbags deployed when you get t-boned in an intersection because your car turned off. GM "Fixed" the problem but didn't issue a recall or even change the part number on the part, meaning you couldn't track if you've got a good or bad one, and strongly implying that they knew of the problem and covered it up. Hundreds of people were killed by this. Parents who bought their kids their kids a safe new car for graduation, moms, etc. GM knew, and covered it up, and worked to avoid a recall.

VW (and audi / porsche) programmed their computers to lie to emissions testers.

I'm not trying to play some whataboutism game here, just pointing out that most car companies "push limits".

Tesla service centers are overloaded and they don't offer a fantastic service experience; tesla sells you a car shaped box of parts if you're foolish enough to buy in their end-of-quarter rush, they push the epa range estimates right up to the edge such that you'll likely never see the rated range on driving on planet earth. they've shown a willingness to OTA gimp cars and even though they've now got the means to fix the various gates they haven't.

Even all that included, I'd tell an EV curious person to buy a tesla because their cars are pretty good and because the supercharger experience is leagues better than any other network. Sure, there are fast charge networks out there, but until they prove they're actually taking it seriously I wouldn't rely on them. Crap like EA's taking a huge fleet of stations offline for labor day weekend isn't great. And, I'm pretty sure that a new tesla would be able to use any 3rd party network.

The problem with your argument (in which you bring up completely valid points) is that with Tesla, you are completely at their mercy. There’s no one else to take your car to. No other dealers. No higher authority. No manager. No one who gives a *sugar* about anything, and it shows. At least if you buy a Ford, there are a dozen dealers to go to. Maybe you might have a chance of finding a sympathetic ear.

 

[SO16]

The problem with your argument (in which you bring up completely valid points) is that with Tesla, you are completely at their mercy. There’s no one else to take your car to. No other dealers. No higher authority. No manager. No one who gives a *sugar* about anything, and it shows. At least if you buy a Ford, there are a dozen dealers to go to. Maybe you might have a chance of finding a sympathetic ear.

For the most part, you are correct.

But there are a couple exceptions.
Electrified garage
Gruber motors

More will show up as time goes on. It’s inevitable.

 

[Ofarlig]

To me the car needs a good range to be even considered as an option, so far there are few of those out there. It most other cars require me to stop and charge for a longer time than I would stop in a ICE car while the modern Teslas actually needs less charging than I normally stop. As I said earlier in the thread, I would love to have other options but there really aren’t that many that gives enough range, performance and tech.

 

[cduzz]

The problem with your argument (in which you bring up completely valid points) is that with Tesla, you are completely at their mercy. There’s no one else to take your car to. No other dealers. No higher authority. No manager. No one who gives a *sugar* about anything, and it shows. At least if you buy a Ford, there are a dozen dealers to go to. Maybe you might have a chance of finding a sympathetic ear.

Yes, I completely agree that the lack of 3rd party support on teslas is a huge concern. Of course, when I bought my S I was half thinking "I wonder if tesla's going to be going out of business soon?" and I worry less about that these days...

I don't know how good support is for "legacy" brand EVs is though -- I don't think a corner shop would be able to work on my wife's Q5 hybrid; the dealership is barely able to work on the high voltage parts of it. I foresee plenty of "Our EV guy is on vacation; we'll get to your car next week" from legacy dealerships.

I don't know which is better, a distracted megalomaniac "big brother" (his muskness) or hundreds of indifferent little brothers (legacy dealerships / manufacturers)? Probably the higher-end legacy dealers will at least try to keep you happy even if they can't (the audi dealership always has fresh scones and coffee, yeah?).

The wheel's been spun! Last call for bets! Someone's going to be right and lots of people are going to be wrong. Buckle up...

 

[cduzz]

To me the car needs a good range to be even considered as an option, so far there are few of those out there. It most other cars require me to stop and charge for a longer time than I would stop in a ICE car while the modern Teslas actually needs less charging than I normally stop. As I said earlier in the thread, I would love to have other options but there really aren’t that many that gives enough range, performance and tech.

My 90D has been perfectly useful even for 800 mile / 1300km trips (in a day). Newer cars will be even better; my 270 mile range is about on the edge of tolerable (either for local driving without fast charging or to allow fast charging to happen quickly).

I dread trips in my wife's audi -- the drone, the stink, the smelly gas stations, etc. Driving trips where the first leg (on an overnight 100% charge) is long, then settling into a cadence of drive for 2 hours stop for 20 minutes is actually pretty civilized. Gone are the days where I'd fill my Golf TDI to the brim and hammer on for 6 hours at a shot (while spending the last 45 minutes anxiously squinting for diesel stations).

Electric cars (even non-teslas) are good enough at this point; the failing is entirely around managing the fast charging network and the car's understanding of the fast charging network. Tesla's got that part nailed down -- the navigation understands where the charging stations are, how busy they are, and if they're offline, and manages the trip for you; it gives you enough information so you can override it if you want, and there are enough fast chargers (at least between where I am and where I want to go) that I don't worry too much about the process.

 

[El joe]

Keep in mind Tesla Rated Range is really more on an Elon Range, like Elon horsepower (700 Elon hp = 463 real hp, because EV power counts for more), or Elon deadlines (by end of day means in a month, soon means in few years, by end of this year means in a decade or more). Somehow the Taycan with lower rated range manages to go farther than higher rated range Teslas when driving together in different fan/blogger/journalist tests.

Yup, that huge grain of salt with everything Elon/Tesla says and does is another reason Tesla loyalty takes a hit. Still the best EVs (by far, in my opinion) but it begins to take its toll when things like FSD and delivery time promises turn out to be ridiculous.

 

[SmartElectric]

Right, which is to completely miss the actual point of my post: that Tesla’s superior charging network is no longer a competitive moat for me given their company practice of severely hampering the charging performance of aging cars and taking away original capabilities that I paid for.

The fact that you’ve called this personal opinion “whining” and heavily insinuated it’s my fault because I bought the wrong car says everything that needs to be said about your ability to be rational and impartial in this discussion.

Sorry you feel I misrepresented exactly how you posted and what you posted. It's all there to read and clearly at that.
Re: not a moat, tell that to Kyle who tried to road trip a Mach-e, you know, the same Mach-e claimed to be the next Tesla killer:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyIzTVZNIAMY9JhzKc-rriQ

Re: impartial : I'm not the one stating Ford Mach-e is a reasonable replacement for your Tesla. The charge curve (13kW at 80%), constant disconnects while charging (see Kyles road trips) would be a maddening experience. I have a Ford Lightning reservation, so am not Tesla apologist, but for sure, I am going to call a spade a spade, the Mach-e you directly listed is in no way competitive with any 2021 Tesla with respect to road trips, full stop.

You haven't been misrepresented here, and I was impartial and pointing out clearly elements of your post in the way I did.