When will we have a Basic Minimum Income?

[ohmman]

Tax rate discussion is relevant, turning it into a political blame-fest isn't.

 

[bkp_duke]

Tax rate discussion is relevant, turning it into a political blame-fest isn't.

I didn't start that, just set the record straight on when the middle class peaked.

 

[ohmman]

I didn't start that, just set the record straight on when the middle class peaked.

I was not posting fingers, I just feared escalation.

 

[mspohr]

The FACT still stands and is valid, and I don't see anything brought up in this file that counters it: teacher TENURE that prevents the firing of BAD teachers is a horrible policy with detrimental effects upon the development of our youth.

"Waiting for Superman" had such a powerful impact because it was created by one of their own, a liberal, and that shocked this group.

I could care less if the system remains public, or becomes privatized (the main counterpoint in this film - they conveniently skirt the issue of tenure and bad teachers). The key is breaking the power of the teacher unions to protect piss-poor teachers.

Doctors and Lawyers are not allowed to keep bad professionals among their ranks, why should teachers?

I'm not saying the majority of teachers in public schools are bad. Far from it. But a valid system MUST exist to root out those that simply do not do their jobs.

Your anger at teachers is irrelevant to this discussion

 

[ohmman]

I support a much more stringent estate tax. Our estate plan is that the vast majority of our wealth goes to our charitable foundation. My kids get a good upbringing, a good education, and some fallback money for extreme medical issues. I feel like that gives them enough of a head start. I recognize opinions differ, but it's an important source of revenue and something the founders preferred.

 

[Stirfelt]

So .... all one needs do is say "off topic" and you can say anything you want?

This is a Tesla forum for crying out loud. Go find your podium elsewhere!!!

 

[bkp_duke]

Your anger at teachers is irrelevant to this discussion

Ah, the go-to when you don't have a well-contrived though-out retort to the facts. You attack me.

I love teachers, otherwise I would not have spent so long in the education system (two doctorates).

Care to continue this on the merits of the discussion?

 

[bkp_duke]

I support a much more stringent estate tax. Our estate plan is that the vast majority of our wealth goes to our charitable foundation. My kids get a good upbringing, a good education, and some fallback money for extreme medical issues. I feel like that gives them enough of a head start. I recognize opinions differ, but it's an important source of revenue and something the founders preferred.

I completely concur with this. Major billionaires like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet follow a similar guideline and give the vast majority of their estates to charity. The beauty of charitable giving is that you can direct EXACTLY how the funds are used. Unlike taxes, where they can be used against your desire and you have no recourse.

 

[mspohr]

Ah, the go-to when you don't have a well-contrived though-out retort to the facts. You attack me.

I love teachers, otherwise I would not have spent so long in the education system (two doctorates).

Care to continue this on the merits of the discussion?

You have no facts, just anger... And it's irrelevant to UBI

 

[bkp_duke]

You have no facts, just anger... And it's irrelevant to UBI

Since you obviously care not to read the rest of the past 2 days of conversation, I'll sum it up for you on my view point and the facts I used to reach that.

UBI is simply adding another "entitlement" to the system. Another un-earned handout for the masses. I rather ascribe to the "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" view. A far better way to stimulate the economy and grow the middle class is a complete revamp of our education system. Which both political "sides" would agree really stinks and the objective data of comparing it to systems in other countries proves this.

Then we get to WHY the system stinks. Well, not ALL of it stinks, just a some of it. And the best documentary with the most thought-out analysis that backs this up with FACTS is in the documentary I referenced (Waiting for Superman).

There's no anger here, just a rational argument.

However, I suspect some possible "teacher or teacher union affiliation" with you. And that's why the short posts, with no actual counterpoint to my arguments. I'm open to being wrong in my viewpoint, but I have yet to see anyone actually provide any counterpoint with evidence that indicates my rationalizations above are incorrect.

Oh, and for the record, our kids are in public school. So I'm not a school hater.

 

[nwdiver]

I rather ascribe to the "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" view.

Ok... teach me how to build a Tesla. or an iPhone. or a laptop. Or any of the hundreds of other things we use in our modern life. That proverb breaks down in a modern society where everyone is specialized and relies on wages to purchase what they want.

Opportunities are quickly dwindling. 15 years ago anyone could have opened a small shop and sold XYZ to make a living to buy their 'fish'. Now there's Amazon. 15 years ago anyone could have leased some space in a strip mall and rented videos. Now there's Netflix.

The education problem has much more to do with the lack of curious minds than bad teachers. Poverty is kryptonite to a curious mind. People tend to be less curious when they're not sure where their next meal will come from...

Even if we COULD solve the education problem and flood the world with engineers remember the other lesson in Econ 101? Supply and demand? Now you're just depressing the wages of engineers...

Much like Global Warming. Industry 4.0 is a problem that the free market is ill-equipped to solve without guidance.

I don't see the labor participation rate turning around anytime soon....

 

[rxlawdude]

Concur. This is why [one side] are so in-favor of illegal immigration. It doesn't matter what the morality of it is (we'll set aside that argument for the time being), they see this as a way to shift the voter base more quickly in their favor and solidify gains. If you look back on the position of Dems in the early 2000s compared to now, at that time they took the same position as Reps now do - legal immigration is just fine, but no border jumpers.

That's why businessmen of both parties like illegal immigration - cheap labor that doesn't complain.

How about this: any non-corporate business that hires even a single illegal immigrant is subject to fines of $10,000 for each day and for each illegal worker. Any corporation that hires even a single illegal immigrant is subject to dissolution - the corporate "death penalty."

Wanna bet you anti-immigration folks don't like that idea. Why? It places the onus on the demand for illegal immigration. You should be all over this idea.

We already have myriad cases where the lack of illegal (e.g., cheap) labor has resulted in businesses not being able to harvest, resulting in millions of dollars of loss in unpicked fruits and vegetables. These businessmen have been unable to find any Americans wanting to, or even being capable of, the manual unskilled labor required. Why?

 

[rxlawdude]

Ok... teach me how to build a Tesla. or an iPhone. or a laptop. Or any of the hundreds of other things we use in our modern life. That proverb breaks down in a modern society where everyone is specialized and relies on wages to purchase what they want.

Opportunities are quickly dwindling. 15 years ago anyone could have opened a small shop and sold XYZ to make a living to buy their 'fish'. Now there's Amazon. 15 years ago anyone could have leased some space in a strip mall and rented videos. Now there's Netflix.

The education problem has much more to do with the lack of curious minds than bad teachers. Poverty is kryptonite to a curious mind. People tend to be less curious when they're not sure where their next meal will come from...

Even if we COULD solve the education problem and flood the world with engineers remember the other lesson in Econ 101? Supply and demand? Now you're just depressing the wages of engineers...

Much like Global Warming. Industry 4.0 is a problem that the free market is ill-equipped to solve without guidance.

I don't see the labor participation rate turning around anytime soon....

Actually, duke doesn't hate teachers. Only that they collectively bargain.

 

[bkp_duke]

Ok... teach me how to build a Tesla. or an iPhone. or a laptop. Or any of the hundreds of other things we use in our modern life. That proverb breaks down in a modern society where everyone is specialized and relies on wages to purchase what they want.

Horse hockey. I have broken down and rebuilt both of my Model S's. I've self-repaired multiple cell phones.

This stuff isn't hard, and your reply simply isn't valid.

 

[bkp_duke]

Actually, duke doesn't hate teachers. Only that they collectively bargain.

Thanks for trying to put words in my mouth, but I'm not, actually.

I completely disagree with ONE provision in the collective bargaining agreement: that teachers get tenure after just 2 years, and cannot be fired except for the most egregious of offenses (i.e. sexual assault, capital crimes, etc.). There are ZERO measures of quality in place in most contracts.

As a physician, I have to pass my boards, and re-certify every 4 years to keep my license. Why should teachers be held to a lesser standard?

 

[bkp_duke]

That's why businessmen of both parties like illegal immigration - cheap labor that doesn't complain.

How about this: any non-corporate business that hires even a single illegal immigrant is subject to fines of $10,000 for each day and for each illegal worker. Any corporation that hires even a single illegal immigrant is subject to dissolution - the corporate "death penalty."

Wanna bet you anti-immigration folks don't like that idea. Why? It places the onus on the demand for illegal immigration. You should be all over this idea.

We already have myriad cases where the lack of illegal (e.g., cheap) labor has resulted in businesses not being able to harvest, resulting in millions of dollars of loss in unpicked fruits and vegetables. These businessmen have been unable to find any Americans wanting to, or even being capable of, the manual unskilled labor required. Why?

I'm good with this, as a business owner that completely follows the law and doesn't have any illegal immigrants on my payroll.

 

[bkp_duke]

Even if we COULD solve the education problem and flood the world with engineers remember the other lesson in Econ 101? Supply and demand? Now you're just depressing the wages of engineers...

FALSE ASSUMPTION here. In the USA we already import an insane number of "skilled laborers" from outside our country, and off-shore work to others (for both cost savings, but also supply reasons).

There is plenty of demand for these jobs.

 

[ohmman]

We already have myriad cases where the lack of illegal (e.g., cheap) labor has resulted in businesses not being able to harvest, resulting in millions of dollars of loss in unpicked fruits and vegetables. These businessmen have been unable to find any Americans wanting to, or even being capable of, the manual unskilled labor required. Why?

So, trying to get this a little back to the topic - we're having this particular issue right now in my neck of the woods. The Sonoma/Napa/Mendocino area wine country is experiencing a shortage of laborers for harvest this year. It is an ongoing problem but has been more pronounced this year with the increased ICE presence and fears of deportation. Some vineyards can be "robotically" machine harvested, and as that technology improves, it can be used more widely. The current technology is generally used for fruit destined for high volume, low priced wines. That cutoff should move farther toward lower production as less waste material (and birds, rodents, etc) are harvested into the bins.

There are some situations that will be extremely difficult for machine harvesting, even after some time. Steep inclines, narrow spacing, very low volume high priced wines, etc. I'm sure there will always be an optics premium on "hand harvested" grapes. But for now, the robots can't keep up with the human need, and the laborers don't exist to do the work. Some vineyards will lose their fruit this year for sure.

This recent intense heat wave doesn't help, either - it speeds up ripening of all grapes and creates a spike in harvest demand.

 

[kort677]

We really should bring back the Eisenhower era tax brackets. Top rate 90%.
Economy was booming and lots of money for infrastructure. Reagan killed the economy and the middle class.

Yes the brackets were up to 90% but the loopholes/work arounds were easy and few if any ever paid that rate.

 

[kort677]

Tax rate discussion is relevant, turning it into a political blame-fest isn't.

Offering a chart of 2016 rates to reference my claims from the '70s is quite irrelevant