When will we have a Basic Minimum Income?

[nwdiver]

Elon Musk: Robots will take our jobs, government will have to pay your wage.

Industry 4.0 is here... will we be ready when its effects really take hold?

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

When we have a basic minimum work requirement from people.

 

[deonb]

Income shouldnt be a requirement for basic shelter, nutrition and transportation.

Dont know if a minimum income is the best way to achieve this though.

 

[deonb]

When we have a basic minimum work requirement from people.

I assume that was an out of context joke. Or did you not watch the video?

 

[PAULL]

If you are offended by free speech, do not watch...

 

[nwdiver]

When we have a basic minimum work requirement from people.

Sooo.... just have people work for works sake? You dig a hole and someone else can fill in the hole? 2 jobs for every hole? Seems pretty silly to do work that isn't necessary just to get a check... why not just hand out the check?

Income shouldnt be a requirement for basic shelter, nutrition and transportation.

Dont know if a minimum income is the best way to achieve this though.

The purpose of a basic minimum income would be to create a minimum level of consumption.... be kind of a waste to have millions of people living in poverty with idle production capability since there's no one capable of purchasing that production. You get caught in a catch-22.

 

[nwdiver]

"The universal consensus from the smartest people in the world is that universal basic income is a given," said John Marshall, chief innovation officer at Lippincott, a creative consultancy that convenes expert panels for its clients on issues such as basic income. "It's something that society won't be able to function without."

Masses of disaffected struggling 'middle class' people got Trump elected. Things will only get worse the longer we ignore the root problem. Jobs are gone and they aren't coming back. If a basic minimum income isn't the solution to Industry 4.0... what is?

 

[kort677]

if you want to earn a decent income you need to make yourself more valuable in the marketplace to command that income. you need to be educated in a professional field or trained in a technical field. basic education and basic skills will command basic wages. I have little sympathy for those who squandered their opportunities to better themselves and now make demands for things that they don't deserve.

 

[trils0n]

Jobs are gone and they aren't coming back. If a basic minimum income isn't the solution to Industry 4.0... what is?

Butlerian Jihad, of course.

 

[nwdiver]

if you want to earn a decent income you need to make yourself more valuable in the marketplace to command that income. you need to be educated in a professional field or trained in a technical field. basic education and basic skills will command basic wages. I have little sympathy for those who squandered their opportunities to better themselves and now make demands for things that they don't deserve.

Did you watch the 'Humans need not apply' video? We 'might' have roles for maaaaybe ~10% of the population in 20 years.... what's the other 90% supposed to do?

Your argument is equivalent to saying you don't need to expand a 300 space parking lot when you have 350 people that need a place to park because if you get to work early enough you can find a space... that's not really a solution.

 

[Jack6591]

It isn't the economic impact that concerns me, It's the world's population with nothing to occupy their time.

 

[nwdiver]

It isn't the economic impact that concerns me, It's the world's population with nothing to occupy their time.

That's why god gave us hobbies

We'll see how the public responds when they realize that even as jobs come back to the US it's mostly robots and not humans that do them.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

if you want to earn a decent income you need to make yourself more valuable in the marketplace to command that income. you need to be educated in a professional field or trained in a technical field. basic education and basic skills will command basic wages. I have little sympathy for those who squandered their opportunities to better themselves and now make demands for things that they don't deserve.

I don't think it is that simple.

First, professional and technical fields are not necessarily immune to downsizing via automation and artificial intelligence. IBM's Watson technology is already able to take over some medical and legal functions. Second, the speed of change may make it difficult to correctly predict which sectors will be adversely affected by AI and maneuver oneself to an economic sector that is less affected. Third, not every person is capable of working in professions or tech. The TMC community is by my observation populated by relatively high IQ people who are willing to take a risk on new things, like electric cars The general population is much less intelligent and relatively resistant to change.

It isn't the economic impact that concerns me, It's the world's population with nothing to occupy their time.

I share a similar concern.

Culturally speaking, the identity of Americans is highly connected to the line of work they are in. Even people who hate their jobs derive some satisfaction from knowing that they at least contribute to society and earn compensation. If tens of millions of people become idled by automation and artificial intelligence, it will mean taking identity away from those people and causing massive loss of self esteem. Some people will retreat into endless hours of television or drug/alcohol fueled orgies, or video games. Others will become depressed and wither away. Another group may pick up arms and cause trouble, because they have nothing to do and a grievance to resolve.

Any solution the worker's problem that arises from automation and AI will have to take into account the human factors as well as the economics. This is about much more than numbers.

 

[renim]

I think Europe will have a much larger problem than USA when autonomous drive becomes the norm.
"idle hands are the devil's workshop' is more dangerous when it results in Jihad instead of Skyrim

 

[gabeincal]

I don't think it is that simple.

If tens of millions of people become idled by automation and artificial intelligence, it will mean taking identity away from those people and causing massive loss of self esteem. Some people will retreat into endless hours of television or drug/alcohol fueled orgies, or video games. Others will become depressed and wither away. Another group may pick up arms and cause trouble, because they have nothing to do and a grievance to resolve.

^^^^^^^ THAT!

 

[nwdiver]

Any solution the worker's problem that arises from automation and AI will have to take into account the human factors as well as the economics. This is about much more than numbers.

Agreed; That's the main reason I think this is such a critical conversation to start now. We're approaching an economic and cultural cliff. The closer we get without taking action the more drastic action we'll have to take to avoid severely negative consequences.

My fear is that politicians will seek out the lowest common denominator in human nature... xenophobia and isolationism as the cause of our problems. Trump and Brexit could be only the beginning.

 

[Jack6591]

Now I myself, will excel when everyday is Saturday!

 

[Missile Toad]

Easily solved by creating three classes:

1. The jigsaw puzzle class;
2. The chess-player class;
3. The Nobel laureate class;

The unemployed blue-color workers have to engage in hobbies in the #1 category; white color in the #2 category (maybe there are video games in a category where they blues& whites mix-it up together). Everybody else, studies how to increase human longevity and invent special diaper changing services for when we grow up to be California Raisins (my nickname for the 100+ year olds). You must play, to get paid... Extra points/$$$ for exercise that diminishes flab. There is no reason we can't become the best humans we have ever been.

 

[nwdiver]

Now I myself, will excel when everyday is Saturday!

When I got out of the Navy I went to school 'full-time'. Apparently you 'full-time' college is 3 days a week and you're still out by noon. I had plenty of $$$ at the time so I didn't work. Never had a problem staying occupied. Plenty of trails to hike and islands to sail around in the great Pacific NW.

I hope to retire by 40... or at least do what I do because it's what I want to do and not because I need income. I don't expect boredom to be one of my problems. I've never had trouble defining my own existence.

 

[mspohr]

It isn't the economic impact that concerns me, It's the world's population with nothing to occupy their time.

If you go back and look at early hunter/gather societies, they spent most of their time sitting around and socializing with nothing to "occupy their time". Our modern industrial economy has people working many more hours.
I think it would be good to not have to be a wage slave in some meaningless job... and face it... most jobs in today's economy are meaningless.
(As a newly retired person, I am actually in that position. It's rather nice. Lots of time for recreation, social activities, hobbies, etc. but I do seem to spend an inordinate amount of time fixing all of my labor saving apparatus around the house.)