Where to install wall charger 60 amp breaker when gateway is full?

[PerformanceY]

I have solar and 3 power walls. I want to add a wall charger. There is no space in the gateway but there is room in the sub panel that houses the breakers for the power walls.

Can I add my wall charger in the battery sub panel?

If I add the wall charger to the battery sub panel can I still charge with grid electricity if I don’t want to use the batteries?

If I charge from the batteries (2 power walls plus and one power wall 2) do they all discharge simultaneously and provide more amps (for a faster charge) than a single powerwall or do they discharge one at a time at 21 amps?

Thanks for reading/helping!

 

[holeydonut]

I feel like they are incorrectly using the integrated panelboard on the gateway. Are those 100A breakers in the gateway feeding other sub panels somewhere?

 

[PerformanceY]

I think the top two are main, next 2 the battery sub panel, and the bottom 2 A/C sub panel

 

[wwhitney]

I feel like they are incorrectly using the integrated panelboard on the gateway.

A panelboard is a panelboard. So not so much incorrectly as unusually.

As to the OP, figuring out where to connect is nontrivial. First question: do you want the EVSE to be backed up? If is backed up, and you are charging a non-Tesla vehicle during an outage, the PWs will happily discharge themselves to charge your EV, which is probably not what you want. On the other hand, if it is not backed up, you'll have no option to use it during an outage.

Second question, what does the compartment to the right of the meter hold? I'm guessing (2) 100A breakers. What is the bus rating (or model number) of the meter/main?

Third question, what is the bus rating (or model number) of the generation panel (the battery panel)?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[GWord]

I feel like they are incorrectly using the integrated panelboard on the gateway. Are those 100A breakers in the gateway feeding other sub panels somewhere?

One appears to be back fed to supply the other two. I don't see the bottom lugs on the GW2 panelboard in use. It does seem unusual; it makes me wonder what issue they were addressing to do it this way. With the (limited) info I have here, I might have used the three slots on GW2 panelboard to land the 3 PWs and put a main breaker in the supply side slot. But I suspect I'm missing some key info on the site...

 

[GWord]

If I charge from the batteries (2 power walls plus and one power wall 2) do they all discharge simultaneously and provide more amps (for a faster charge) than a single powerwall or do they discharge one at a time at 21 amps?

Thanks for reading/helping!

They work in parallel giving you their combined amperage. There may be some software settable current limitations based on bus ratings, but conceptually, they all work in parallel.

 

[wwhitney]

One appears the be back fed to supply the other two. I don't see the bottom lugs on the GW2 panelboard in use. It does seem unusual; it makes me wonder what issue they were addressing to do it this way. With the (limited) info I have here, I might have used the three slots on GW2 panelboard to land the 3 PWs and put a main breaker in the supply side slot. But I suspect I'm missing some key info on the site...

Yes, it's unclear why the original install put two load breakers (and a main breaker) in the internal panelboard, and 3 generation breakers (and a main breaker) in an exterior panelboard. It would be more typical to put 3 generation breakers (and no main breaker) on the internal panelboard, and the 2 loads (plus a main breaker) in the external panelboard. Which would leave room for adding load breakers there, and make it obvious where to put the EVSE circuit, assuming it was desired to have it backed up.

As to not using the lugs on the internal panelboard, that load panelboard needs to be protected at no more than 200A. And it is supplied by the grid breaker (I'm guessing 100A), (2) PW+s (50A each, although only 40A while the grid is present), and a PW2 (30A). And 100 + 40 + 40 + 30 > 200. So it needs a main breaker. [Plus if it didn't have a main breaker, the feeder supplying it (which includes the bussing in the GW2) would have to be rated 210A, which it isn't, it's only 200A.]

Cheers, Wayne

 

[holeydonut]

A panelboard is a panelboard. So not so much incorrectly as unusually.

As to the OP, figuring out where to connect is nontrivial. First question: do you want the EVSE to be backed up? If is backed up, and you are charging a non-Tesla vehicle during an outage, the PWs will happily discharge themselves to charge your EV, which is probably not what you want. On the other hand, if it is not backed up, you'll have no option to use it during an outage.

Second question, what does the compartment to the right of the meter hold? I'm guessing (2) 100A breakers. What is the bus rating (or model number) of the meter/main?

Third question, what is the bus rating (or model number) of the generation panel (the battery panel)?

Cheers, Wayne

I think Vines was pretty clear that the integrated panelboard is only supposed to be a generation panel (edit, if the internal panelboard is bonded to the backup side). IIRC he said using the internal panelboard to service home loads could leave the internal panelboard unprotected, so it didn't adhere to how Tesla designed the Gateway. I remember he described the use case that OP is trying to do where trying to add an EV would be really messy.

For my install, Sunrun refused to source a Quad 30A; so they said my solar and ESS breakers couldn't fit in the limited slots of the internal panelboard. Sunrun's design would have used the integrated panelboard to land breakers that would feed distribution panels for home loads. And Sunrun would install a separate generation panel on the backup side of the gateway that held all the 30A Powerwall breakers and 40A solar breaker.

Luckily the Powerwall guy doing the install also agreed Sunrun's designers were whack, and he went with your+Vines proposal with a Quad 30A... so the internal panelboard was for generation only.

 

[GWord]

Yes, it's unclear why the original install put two load breakers (and a main breaker) in the internal panelboard, and 3 generation breakers (and a main breaker) in an exterior panelboard. It would be more typical to put 3 generation breakers (and no main breaker) on the internal panelboard, and the 2 loads (plus a main breaker) in the external panelboard. Which would leave room for adding load breakers there, and make it obvious where to put the EVSE circuit, assuming it was desired to have it backed up.

As to not using the lugs on the internal panelboard, that load panelboard needs to be protected at no more than 200A. And it is supplied by the grid breaker (I'm guessing 100A), (2) PW+s (50A each, although only 40A while the grid is present), and a PW2 (30A). And 100 + 40 + 40 + 30 > 200. So it needs a main breaker. [Plus if it didn't have a main breaker, the feeder supplying it (which includes the bussing in the GW2) would have to be rated 210A, which it isn't, it's only 200A.]

Cheers, Wayne

Agreed on all points. On the issue of protecting the internal panelboard, that's where I would have used the supply breaker slot on the right of the GW2 panel. An Eaton 100A BWH breaker there would act as your grid side protection. Any non backed up loads could be branched from the non backup lugs under the optional panel board on the left. But maybe they needed the 70A breaker for that, which the backup lugs would not have provided for.

 

[wwhitney]

I think Vines was pretty clear that the integrated panelboard is only supposed to be a generation panel. IIRC he said using the internal panelboard to service home loads could leave the internal panelboard unprotected, so it didn't adhere to how Tesla designed the Gateway.

That would often be true if the integrated panelboard is supplied via its bottom main lugs. But since the install is using 2 of the 6 slots for a backfed breaker, the integrated panelboard is protected by that breaker.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[wwhitney]

Agreed on all points. On the issue of protecting the internal panelboard, that's where I would have used the supply breaker slot on the right of the GW2 panel. An Eaton 100A BWH breaker there would act as your grid side protection.

There's certainly a breaker in the meter main, so the supply breaker in the GW would be redundant.

And it wouldn't be sufficient to protect the internal panelboard if it were supplied via the main lugs instead of a backfed breaker. The load side lugs at the bottom of the GW are connected to both the grid supply and the generation panel, so the computation in my previous post would still apply.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[GWord]

There's certainly a breaker in the meter main, so the supply breaker in the GW would be redundant.

And it wouldn't be sufficient to protect the internal panelboard if it were supplied via the main lugs instead of a backfed breaker. The load side lugs at the bottom of the GW are connected to both the grid supply and the generation panel, so the computation in my previous post would still apply.

Cheers, Wayne

I think we're missing each other. The generation panel goes away in my scenario. Its function is replaced by landing the generation branches (and only the generation) on the internal panelboad. In that case the internal panel would have 50 + 50 + 30. Under the 200A bus rating. I guess you have to keep the 120% rule in mind for the backup lugs at the very bottom since it would be feeding home load via both generation or grid. It's not clear to me if the GW2 can manage supply via CAN bus to the PWs and inverters.

 

[wwhitney]

I think we're missing each other. The generation panel goes away in my scenario. Its function is replaced by landing the generation branches (and only the generation) on the internal panelboad.

Yes, that would be more typical as I commented earlier, and such a panelboard doesn't require a main breaker.

I guess you have to keep the 20% rule in mind for the backup lugs at the very bottom since it would be feeding home load.

It wouldn't be the 120% rule, it would be the rules on feeders connected to more than one source of supply, which I mentioned earlier. Commonly handled by putting a main breaker in the load panel.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[GWord]

I think Vines was pretty clear that the integrated panelboard is only supposed to be a generation panel. IIRC he said using the internal panelboard to service home loads could leave the internal panelboard unprotected, so it didn't adhere to how Tesla designed the Gateway. I remember he described the use case that OP is trying to do where trying to add an EV would be really messy.

Just to further drag us off topic , the GW2 installation manual does show a scenario with a back fed internal panel board.

 

[holeydonut]

Just to further drag us off topic , the GW2 installation manual does show a scenario with a back fed internal panel board.

View attachment 758441

That's the diagram if the heavy load using the internal panelboard is on the non-backup side of the gateway. I'll edit my post to clarify I only meant what I said when the internal panelboard was being used on the backup side.

 

[GWord]

That's the diagram if the heavy load using the internal panelboard is on the non-backup side of the gateway. I'll edit my post to clarify I only meant what I said when the internal panelboard was being used on the backup side.

Ah, I got it; that makes sense.

 

[GWord]

Yes, that would be more typical as I commented earlier, and such a panelboard doesn't require a main breaker.


It wouldn't be the 120% rule, it would be the rules on feeders connected to more than one source of supply, which I mentioned earlier. Commonly handled by putting a main breaker in the load panel.

Cheers, Wayne

Yeah, ok I understand the point you're making. I was assuming the load panel had its own breaker which obviously isn't a given.

 

[wwhitney]

That's the diagram if the heavy load using the internal panelboard is on the non-backup side of the gateway. I'll edit my post to clarify I only meant what I said when the internal panelboard was being used on the backup side.

Again, the use of the internal panelboard as shown in the OP isn't wrong, it's just weird.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[ucmndd]

As to the OP, figuring out where to connect is nontrivial. First question: do you want the EVSE to be backed up? If is backed up, and you are charging a non-Tesla vehicle during an outage, the PWs will happily discharge themselves to charge your EV, which is probably not what you want.

For a Tesla EVSE, you generally want it on the backed up side because the gateway can talk to the car and avoid the scenario you speak of above, controlling the current so as to not overload the powerwalls when off grid and also allowing you to set a max percentage of reserve power that can be used for vehicle charging. We have our Tesla EVSE backed up and the other one for our not-Tesla excluded.

Vehicle Charging During Power Outage | Tesla Support

Powerwall now coordinates with Tesla vehicles during a power outage to charge your car without exceeding the energy and power capabilities of your Powerwall.

www.tesla.com

EDIT: I see now you mentioned "non-Tesla vehicle" in your post - missed that so I'm sure you already know this. Hopefully it's helpful for OP. I just assumed they meant a Tesla EVSE based on their user name, "wall charger" description, and the blue Model Y in the background of the photo.

 

[PerformanceY]

Wow! Thank you all so much for the help!

I feel like they are incorrectly using the integrated panelboard on the gateway. Are those 100A breakers in the gateway feeding other sub panels

A panelboard is a panelboard. So not so much incorrectly as unusually.

As to the OP, figuring out where to connect is nontrivial. First question: do you want the EVSE to be backed up? If is backed up, and you are charging a non-Tesla vehicle during an outage, the PWs will happily discharge themselves to charge your EV, which is probably not what you want. On the other hand, if it is not backed up, you'll have no option to use it during an outage.

Second question, what does the compartment to the right of the meter hold? I'm guessing (2) 100A breakers. What is the bus rating (or model number) of the meter/main?

Third question, what is the bus rating (or model number) of the generation panel (the battery panel)?

Cheers, Wayne

Thanks for the answer!

Yes I want the EVSE backed up.

That was previously the main which houses 2 100amp breakers.

I’ll get back to you on those others…