The key claim, that VW, Stellantis, Hyundai and others are still in the “starting blocks” stands!
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Who can catch Tesla ? They seem to be experiencing exponential growth…..
- Thread starter Stuart Watson
- Start date
RobDickinson
Active Member
Tesal doesnt release monthly sales data and is subject to quarterly peaks and troughs, looking at one month of anything isnt a great idea when trying to make a point.
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Especially in the case of Ford Mach wee that likely had more returns then sales in the month. Lol
Well that’s a bit of a weird response.
I moved from a 2020 X5 MSPORT … My own experience, is to conclude the Tesla MY LR is a far superior car…..
But I guess you know best?
I’m looking at the “big picture” here! Who is buying what !
(I’m not interested in anecdotal details; how your cup fits the Tesla cup holder or how you are greeted at the local Tesla service centre.)
Look at the numbers; Ford, GM BMW and Stellantis are selling.
They should be ashamed of themselves.
These are the very companies that laughed at Elon, eleven or twelve years ago.
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Lastly : they seem to want to charge more than BMW, Porsche and MBZ at a fraction of the quality.
I would like to respond to that!
You cant justify your statement.
When I purchased my MY , I looked closely at the Taycan (Including a 2 hour test drive). The interior is gorgeous, but the whole package falls short of the overall Tesla competency.
My budget would only stretch to the base model Taycan. (Zero extras)
( It’s “ugly as hell”, unlike the higher price Taycan Models)
Take a close look at one, you will soon see why the base model, never features in Porsche showrooms or advertising!)
I’d argue that a Tesla MY (LR) is actually far better value.
The Taycan suffers with (similar to the MY) (i) ugly 19inch aero covers (ii) only partial leather (ii) inferior acceleration (iii) inferior range (iv) inferior efficiency (v) only 2WD (vi) shite sound system unless you pay extra $…...I could go on.
Now back to the thread;
“ Look at the actual numbers for Ford, GM, Stellantis and BMW”. An utter embarassment”
I would like to respond to that!
You cant justify your statement.
When I purchased my MY , I looked closely at the Taycan (Including a 2 hour test drive). The interior is gorgeous, but the whole package falls short of the overall Tesla competency.
My budget would only stretch to the base model Taycan. (Zero extras)
( It’s “ugly as hell”, unlike the higher price Taycan Models)
Take a close look at one, you will soon see why the base model, never features in Porsche showrooms or advertising!)
I’d argue that a Tesla MY (LR) is actually far better value.
The Taycan suffers with (similar to the MY) (i) ugly 19inch aero covers (ii) only partial leather (ii) inferior acceleration (iii) inferior range (iv) inferior efficiency (v) only 2WD (vi) shite sound system unless you pay extra $…...I could go on.
Now back to the thread;
“ Look at the actual numbers for Ford, GM, Stellantis and BMW”. An utter embarassment”
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I agree. VW is targeting a lower entry cost market. And they quirky models like the Van.
But the Chinese companies are going to hold the overall vehicle count soon. Tesla or VW cannot compete with a $10K (or less) EV. Plus, China has a population (1.5 B+) over twice the size of the US and EU combined.
How ridiculous!
In the U.K. the ID3 is £37K.
It has shite range/efficiency.
My friend decided to buy a two year old M3. He had a close shave with the VW
_Redshift_
Member
I have driven the Taycan over different roads and knkw it’s strengths and weaknesses.
It isn’t a good comparison to compare MY (a family hauling crossover) to a sporty sedan (albeit a heavy one).
Thus, ‘it’s only 2wd vs 4Wd‘ argument is irrelevant. (unless driving in snow or off-road many times a year, 4Wd is a liability in terms of efficiency, not an advantage)
Regarding range, Porsche‘s real world range test got about 280 miles in the car and driver test. (Both the 3 and Y got much less than their advertised range). I’m not sure you know, but Tesla real world range underperforms the EPA range quite a bit. On a recent road trip 290 miles to Southern California, me and my friend drove in our 3 and Y respectively. Mine got 266 miles in average 70 mph driving with 4 adults, my friend’s Y got about 230 miles with 4 adults. (Estimated based on remaining range after traveling 200 miles to the supercharger)
Leaving aside the subjective ‘it’s ugly’ (one could argue the same for either vehicle, actually), let me ask you more specifically:
Which interior has higher quality materials?
Which exterior is better put together? (paint, alignment)
Which car has more interior and exterior color choices?
Regarding partial leather comment - No Teslas have real leather anymore, IIRC.
Anyway, I don’t want to comment more here. My point is, right now, Tesla doesn’t have meaningful competition, in that the overall package as you put it, favors Tesla. (Tesla charging network is superior)
That might not be the case a few years from now, though. There are strong competitors coming up, they are hamstrung by supply chain issues, as is Tesla.
Here's why Bloomberg thinks Volkswagen's EV sales will overtake Tesla's by 2024
According to a comprehensive report published this morning by research firm Bloomberg Intelligence, Tesla will hold its global crown for...
electrek.co
GY 2020… that’s a fascinating article ! Thanks for posting it.
‘The report suggests that most legacy automakers will be unable to divest their BEV-related assets from their combustion vehicle production since those gasoline models are helping fund the transition to BEV models. Volkswagen, however, is the exception, thanks in part to an IPO for its Porsche marque expected in Q4 of this year.”
Thats one way of looking at the Porsche sell off.
Its impossible to ignore the statement by Dries himself , who said “ VW are unable to afford to develop BEV’s from existing revenue flows!
The outcome is; he is selling his favourite child (Porsche,) just to survive!
‘The report suggests that most legacy automakers will be unable to divest their BEV-related assets from their combustion vehicle production since those gasoline models are helping fund the transition to BEV models. Volkswagen, however, is the exception, thanks in part to an IPO for its Porsche marque expected in Q4 of this year.”
Thats one way of looking at the Porsche sell off.
Its impossible to ignore the statement by Dries himself , who said “ VW are unable to afford to develop BEV’s from existing revenue flows!
The outcome is; he is selling his favourite child (Porsche,) just to survive!
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In Norway, from elbilstatistikk.no:
VAG sales of MEB suv (VW ID.4, Skoda Enyaq and Audi Q4) in Norway has been
27,823 in total from the start winter -21, with a massive production limit - people have been waiting 2 years already and still waiting.
Similarly sized and range Y: 14,128 since August -21, ie 6 months shorter sales period.
This year 2022, the numbers from VAG are 9,765, while Y has 5,950. Both are production-limited, but waiting times for the Y is shorter, usually next quarter at most while VAG have one year delivery delay.
Audi e-tron has in 3 years sold more than the Model S did between 2013 and -21.
Today, Bjørn Nyland showed the ID.5 suv coupe got a 1000 km test @10 hours flat, only 15 mins slower than a Y LR that ran higher tire pressures in warmer temperatures. But ID.5 has lower noise and better suspension and can use opened Tesla superchargers as well.
Here in Norway, Tesla will probably loose market share from now on - but they still are a big one though.
VAG sales of MEB suv (VW ID.4, Skoda Enyaq and Audi Q4) in Norway has been
27,823 in total from the start winter -21, with a massive production limit - people have been waiting 2 years already and still waiting.
Similarly sized and range Y: 14,128 since August -21, ie 6 months shorter sales period.
This year 2022, the numbers from VAG are 9,765, while Y has 5,950. Both are production-limited, but waiting times for the Y is shorter, usually next quarter at most while VAG have one year delivery delay.
Audi e-tron has in 3 years sold more than the Model S did between 2013 and -21.
Today, Bjørn Nyland showed the ID.5 suv coupe got a 1000 km test @10 hours flat, only 15 mins slower than a Y LR that ran higher tire pressures in warmer temperatures. But ID.5 has lower noise and better suspension and can use opened Tesla superchargers as well.
Here in Norway, Tesla will probably loose market share from now on - but they still are a big one though.
RobDickinson
Active Member
globally though tesla has increased market share from 2021 to this year so far
Tesla’s growth is limited. When all the giga factories are at maximum production, that’s it. Toyota, VW and others have more manufacturing potential when they retool all their existing plants. At the moment everyone is constrained by the supply chain, the immaturity of the market and a looming recession.
So will Tesla go from the largest brand to the most exclusive when the giants finally overtake, or will giga factories start popping up all over? Or perhaps Tesla will become the battery, drive train and technology supplier to the rest of the industry....
So will Tesla go from the largest brand to the most exclusive when the giants finally overtake, or will giga factories start popping up all over? Or perhaps Tesla will become the battery, drive train and technology supplier to the rest of the industry....
RobDickinson
Active Member
You don't think tesla having room to expand, groundbreaking capital efficiency, lowest time to build cars, and the ability to build new factories in 12-24 months has any bearing on that hypothesis?
Could you give us an example of a giant overtaking during a paradigm shift in history?
Yes, but the more factories and production lines you have the more vulnerable you are to a market downturn...Musk has said how the new giga factories just burn money...so it depends on how he sees the future....long term and short term are easy to predict...we have pent up demand right now and long term battery electric vehicles are the future...but mid term there could be a recession....and demand could drop, especially in the Semi market...but Musk is a gambler, all or nothing..
RobDickinson
Active Member
New factories before they are making much stuff do indeed burn money.
But tesla is the most efficient in this process, with the most in demand product with the most efficient build.
They'll also have more factories and sales with products that have a higher gross margin than anyone else.
But whatever
But tesla is the most efficient in this process, with the most in demand product with the most efficient build.
They'll also have more factories and sales with products that have a higher gross margin than anyone else.
But whatever
There is a short time before ice cars are banned by law in Europe, then America and probably the rest of the world shortly after...at the moment the large auto manufacturers have a capacity of millions of vehicles, and they are not ashamed to take an existing platform and just put in an electric drive train...so these factories will be retooled...unless they all go the way of the dinosaur
