Will Mercedes jump to level 3 before Tesla? Looks like it.

[Daniel in SD]

It seems that Mercedes is laying down a challenge to Tesla..put your money where your mouth is....but with US juries awarded damages closing in a billion dollars per case...it is not worth the effort.
Also the car owner will be obligated to make sure they follow all servicing to the letter

Yeah I wonder if they have some sort of tire tread depth measurement system. They do have a microphone in the wheel well that’s designed to detect if the road is wet.
It’s certainly a big liability risk for Mercedes. The biggest risks I can think of are lane splitting motorcyclists, pedestrians and trucks changing lanes in to you. It seems like where liability gets tricky is situations like the merging truck where a human driver would usually be able to avoid an accident that is the other parties fault. I suppose that will be an argument between Mercedes and the truck driver’s insurance company.
I have no idea how popular such a limited system will be. If you go by reactions on this forum Tesla has nothing to worry about. Haha.

 

[EVNow]

I suppose that will be an argument between Mercedes and the truck driver’s insurance company.

And your survivors.

No thx.

BTW, that merging truck case was exactly the issue we saw with Honda Legend “L3” demo video.

 

[Daniel in SD]

And your survivors.

No thx.

BTW, that merging truck case was exactly the issue we saw with Honda Legend “L3” demo video.

Early adopters only, no luddites
That video was what I was thinking of.

 

[EVNow]

Early adopters only, no luddites
That video was what I was thinking of.

After I bought AP/FSD it took me a few weeks to work up the courage to try AP even on empty 25 mph streets.

Irrespective of what the manufacturer says, it will take quite a bit of time for me to believe the car can be left unsupervised on freeways.

 

[totoro722]

You would not have to be concerned about that problem with the Mercedes system as described. Limited to 40 mph, it would not be allowed on a freeway. Imagine trying to drive that thing from LA to Las Vegas expecting to use L3 assistance.

 

[Daniel in SD]

After I bought AP/FSD it took me a few weeks to work up the courage to try AP even on empty 25 mph streets.

Irrespective of what the manufacturer says, it will take quite a bit of time for me to believe the car can be left unsupervised on freeways.

Which seems irrational to me because it would take an individual a lifetime of use to determine if the Mercedes system is safe. How often do collisions occur driving less than 40mph on the freeway? Also I bet this system will eliminate common minor collisions and be most susceptible to edge cases which are extraordinarily rare (but hopefully not severe? Who knows).

 

[Daniel in SD]

You would not have to be concerned about that problem with the Mercedes system as described. Limited to 40 mph, it would not be allowed on a freeway. Imagine trying to drive that thing from LA to Las Vegas expecting to use L3 assistance.

You just have to drive on Friday afternoon. It only works on approved HD mapped freeways.
The L2 system works up to 130mph.

 

[clydeiii]

There are only 2.7 million miles of paved road in the United States. FSD Beta users alone could cover that in a few hours...

Unfortunately the current FSD beta stack doesn't work like this at all.

 

[Supcom]

Finally - as a driver the minimum you need is that the local police will not arrest you for something the car did.

As a practical matter, how would police make a determination at the scene as to what mode the car was using at the time of a collision? The car might not have enough functionality to be able to provide the information.

 

[Daniel in SD]

What approval - State or NHTSA ?

Finally - as a driver the minimum you need is that the local police will not arrest you for something the car did. For that state needs to positively approve that liability transfer. Ofcourse, actually getting all the cops educated on that is a different question.

Ofcourse NHTSA has to approve before the car can be sold at all.

I don’t think automated driving systems are regulated by the NHTSA and nothing on the car would violate the FMVSS that I know of.
I also don’t think it would be legal to register a vehicle with an L3 system in California unless it is approved by the state. Will a car dealer sell you an unregistered vehicle? These hypotheticals are getting a little bit crazy. Haha.

 

[Goose66]

What about corporate manslaughter? It would be impossible to argue that Mercedes got everything perfectly right for every possible situation

"Corporate Manslaughter" sounds like an English law thing so I can't comment intelligently on it, but you don't see a lot of corporations being charged or sanctioned outside of civil courts for negligence in the U.S. As I said, it is a consumer products law thing (civil courts and money damages). Even with the huge gun manufacturer, drug manufacturer, and tobacco industry cases, I don't ever remember hearing of a corporation being sanctioned criminally for manslaughter. We just don't have that view of the law here. Bad things are done by bad people. Corporations are only financially liable for the actions of their bad employees.

As far as Mercedes getting "everything perfectly right for every possible situation," I don't know what standard you are applying here. No one ever gets "everything perfectly right for every possible situation," so it's not something that a reasonable person (or corporation) is expected to do (so no negligence). But in consumer product law, you don't really need to find negligence to find liability. Manufacturers are liable for damages caused by their products (at least to the extent that it is the product's fault - depending on the state) regardless of whether there is negligence or not. A finding of gross negligence by employees of the manufacturer can enhance damages, however, as well as result in punatives. But going back to the OP's question, nobody is going to jail.

 

[Tha_Ape]

I've been saying that for a bit. Tesla holds a slight lead, but shunning other sensors that are objectively better in certain situations could be a self inflicted wound.

Tesla is putting all of its eggs in one basket. If it works, it'll be a truly elegant solution. It's risky though and if it doesn't, other manufacturers are going to leapfrog over Tesla. Tesla will scramble to catch up with integrating other sensors while others mature the tech.

Personally, the only time I want my car driving for me is on long trips (highway) and traffic (stop and go). The rest of the time I actually enjoy driving.

I hope Tesla figures it out how to do everything with only a few cameras, but I'm skeptical.

 

[aronth5]

Why does anybody read another car companies media blurb regarding FSD and assume their timelines and functionality is accurate?

"Will Mercedes jump to level 3 before Tesla? Looks like it"​

This happens over and over again. Haven't we learned from Tesla that one should wait and see what actually gets delivered?

 

[EVNow]

I don’t think automated driving systems are regulated by the NHTSA and nothing on the car would violate the FMVSS that I know of.
I also don’t think it would be legal to register a vehicle with an L3 system in California unless it is approved by the state. Will a car dealer sell you an unregistered vehicle? These hypotheticals are getting a little bit crazy. Haha.

You keep saying that. Didn't you read the latest news on this from NHTSA ?

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2022-03/Final-Rule-Occupant-Protection-Amendment-Automated-Vehicles.pdf

Anyway,

U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

NHTSA said existing regulations do not currently bar deploying automated vehicles as long as they have manual driving controls, and as it continues to consider changing other safety standards, manufacturers may still need to petition NHTSA for an exemption to sell their ADS-equipped vehicles.

 

[Daniel in SD]

You keep saying that. Didn't you read the latest news on this from NHTSA ?

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2022-03/Final-Rule-Occupant-Protection-Amendment-Automated-Vehicles.pdf

Anyway,

U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

U.S. regulators on Thursday issued final rules eliminating the need for automated vehicle manufacturers to equip fully autonomous vehicles with manual driving controls to meet crash standards.

www.reuters.com

The Mercedes vehicles have manual driving controls. Is there any NHTSA regulation regarding the ADS itself?

For example if Mercedes wanted to have the driver seat rotate to be rearward facing I imagine that would require NHTSA approval because it would effect the crash safety of the vehicle. The reason some ADS equipped vehicles need NHTSA approval is because they have physical configurations that would not be allowed in manually driven vehicles.

 

[Raurele]

You keep saying that. Didn't you read the latest news on this from NHTSA ?

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2022-03/Final-Rule-Occupant-Protection-Amendment-Automated-Vehicles.pdf

Anyway,

U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

Did you read the 155 page news lol

 

[EVNow]

The Mercedes vehicles have manual driving controls. Is there any NHTSA regulation regarding the ADS itself?

For example if Mercedes wanted to have the driver seat rotate to be rearward facing I imagine that would require NHTSA approval because it would effect the crash safety of the vehicle. The reason some ADS equipped vehicles need NHTSA approval is because they have physical configurations that would not be allowed in manually driven vehicles.

Yes, Mercedes can either wing it saying, nothing currently bars their L3 deployment of vehicles that have been "vigorously" tested for 5 minutes or they can ask for explicit permission so that they don't get some kind of surprise action by NHTSA later on. If Merc was Tesla, they would wing it .... but Merc being Merc, and since the manager responsible doesn't want to lose his job, I'm sure they will ask for explicit permission.

manufacturers may still need to petition NHTSA for an exemption to sell their ADS-equipped vehicles.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Yes, Mercedes can either wing it saying, nothing currently bars their L3 deployment of vehicles that have been "vigorously" tested for 5 minutes or they can ask for explicit permission so that they don't get some kind of surprise action by NHTSA later on. If Merc was Tesla, they would wing it .... but Merc being Merc, and since the manager responsible doesn't want to lose his job, I'm sure they will ask for explicit permission.

manufacturers may still need to petition NHTSA for an exemption to sell their ADS-equipped vehicles.

Which NHTSA rule would they be applying for an exemption for?

 

[EVNow]

Which NHTSA rule would they be applying for an exemption for?

Their lawyers will figure that out

 

[daktari]

According to Mercedes, Drive Pilot is a Level 3 system. But at the same time they are publishing text showing a complete safe stop strategi if the driver does not respond to a "take over request".

This is how Mercedes-Benz Level 3 DRIVE PILOT system works when it needs human to take over

View attachment 784704

L3 will be available in fairly limited operational domain at launch. Sounds similar, but a more limited ODD compared to Navigate on Autopilot. When out of ODD, car can fall back to L2 (more like NoA). Even with the initially limited ODD, this is a huge step over NoA: L3 needs to start somewhere.

View attachment 784711

According to @stopcrazypp and @Knightshade such a capability is not within the SAE level 3 standard, since a Level 3 a system shall only give the driver "within seconds" to take over manual driving and then disengage whatever the driver does. A safe stop capability (like Mercedes have) is the difference defining a Level 4 system.

What does it mean? Can Mercedes call a Level 4 a Level 3? Do they follow a different standard? Can they deviate from the standard at their own will?