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Will you buy FSD before the $1,000 increase on July 1st?

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A true "Driver" would never even think about the FSD package as they would want to drive themselves.

Stop. You knew exactly what he meant. Drivers in the sense of people who actually enjoy cars. Defining a “True” driver is a slippery slope/fool’s game that you can play by yourself.

Anyone that has had a drivers license for more than a month isn’t excited about “driving” in traffic. So steering us back onto the FSD topic, to me, $7k to not have to drive the work commutes and other mundane driving tasks is a no brainer. FSD can always be turned off, to enjoy the fun parts of driving.
 
Eh and the price was dropped from what it was in the past. I did not pay any extra for it. It was free.


Uh...no.

They dropped prices to account for expiring tax credits. NET cost to customer is actually slight higher today on most model 3 versions than when they were introduced a year or two ago. (math on this has been shown many many times already)

So no, it was not "free". I mean, they literally raised the price of all the cars that got it in the same announcement they said it was now standard. So even tesla told you it wasn't "free"


Having just bought FSD in mid June when I took delivery, I don't care if we ever get full autonomous driving. As anpan aside, it confuses me that people still conflate FSD with true autonomous driving even though Tesla explicitly doesn't advertise FSD this way.

Except they have. For years.

Elon still does today, discussing robotaxis with no drivers using current cars and FSD.
 
Uh...no.

They dropped prices to account for expiring tax credits. NET cost to customer is actually slight higher today on most model 3 versions than when they were introduced a year or two ago. (math on this has been shown many many times already)

So no, it was not "free". I mean, they literally raised the price of all the cars that got it in the same announcement they said it was now standard. So even tesla told you it wasn't "free"

In Sweden the price stayed the same even though Autopilot was included (and even though the incentives actually increased). If you are buying a P they even lowered the price a lot and it now costs only $3.5k more than a LR AWD. So it seems depending on which market you are in.

Anyone that has had a drivers license for more than a month isn’t excited about “driving” in traffic. So steering us back onto the FSD topic, to me, $7k to not have to drive the work commutes and other mundane driving tasks is a no brainer. FSD can always be turned off, to enjoy the fun parts of driving.

What extra does FSD add over autopilot for commuting today? Autopilot does what I would do on a normal commute, you get on the highway and stay there with enough traffic that dashing back and forth between lanes isn’t useful, once you get off neither FSD or autopilot can handle the roundabouts and such that are there anyway. Once FSD let’s me not pay attention on the highway then it for sure have a use case, but when will that be? Since my car is nearing 6 months old already they would have to release legal to use level 3 within a year at the most for me to get any actual use of buying FSD, will they do that?

The interesting part will be now that UNECE has come out with their regulations regarding level 3 driving assistance systems for highways (although limited to operating below 60 km/h at start so only useful in traffic). Will Tesla be a part of that or do they not yet have enough faith in their system to accept liability? It seems Audi has a system where they are ready for that so it will be very interesting to see which manufacturers are in the first wave of legal to use level 3.
 
If I had no automation, I'd say 7K for FSD would be worth it.

But I have Autopilot included for free. To me the gap in usable functionality between base Autopilot and FSD isn't close to 7K in value. I think like a 3K option for what used to be EAP is the perfect middle option. I really wish they would bring that back.
Uh...no.

They dropped prices to account for expiring tax credits. NET cost to customer is actually slight higher today on most model 3 versions than when they were introduced a year or two ago. (math on this has been shown many many times already)

So no, it was not "free". I mean, they literally raised the price of all the cars that got it in the same announcement they said it was now standard. So even tesla told you it wasn't "free"




Except they have. For years.

Elon still does today, discussing robotaxis with no drivers using current cars and FSD.

Elon's tweets are not a promise to you when you buy a car. I don't necessarily like his unwarranted optimism and missed deadlines, but it's on the buyer to understand what they are getting. Caveat emptor. Nowhere did Tesla promise me autonomous driving when I bought by car.

I get what you are saying that the marketing is confusing to many buyers, but we need to separate the future vision from the actual product that is being offered today.
 
Uh...no.

They dropped prices to account for expiring tax credits. NET cost to customer is actually slight higher today on most model 3 versions than when they were introduced a year or two ago. (math on this has been shown many many times already)

So no, it was not "free". I mean, they literally raised the price of all the cars that got it in the same announcement they said it was now standard. So even tesla told you it wasn't "free"

So in March 2020, I had an option of buying a LR AWD without Autopilot? What's that? No I didn't. My only options were a $0 add-on of Autopilot and a $7k addon of FSD?

So i guess it really was free .... it's no extra charge. Stop with the "technically" stuff. If you wanna say it's 3k for Autopilot, then it's 10k for FSD. Still a 7k add-on which is whole freaking point of the post.
 
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Having just bought FSD in mid June when I took delivery, I don't care if we ever get full autonomous driving. As anpan aside, it confuses me that people still conflate FSD with true autonomous driving even though Tesla explicitly doesn't advertise FSD this way. The level 2 driver assistance features are better than what other manufacturers are offering and are well worth the $7k. I thought they were worth around $5K before I bought them, but I've revised my estimate upward since playing around with it for a while. People complaining about FSD not allowing them to sleep in their car or handle edge cases like toll booths remind me of the Louis CK sketch where someone immediately complains about inflight WiFi not working perfectly IMMEDIATELY after it's invented.

Limited versions of competitor level 2 systems that often barely match free autopilot are $1,500-$2,500. Often these require buying higher technology packages on the car to even enable the option. Cadillac SuperCruise costs $2,500 on top of a $3,500 option, and has a more limited feature set and is geofenced to certain areas (with no realistic promise of meaningful OTA updates). Based on all the data points we have, FSD appears to be priced fairly with the competition. I personally think they made a pricing mistake by making base Autopilot free. I think a $3k charge for autopilot and $5-6k for FSD would have been smarter, but I'm happy to get Autopilot included.

My biggest gripe with FSD is simply the name. People buy it and expect a hands free autonomous car. It's not that and it might never be that. I'm okay with that, but I can understand people's frustration if they either didn't understand what they were buying or if they got their car before in 2018 when Tesla was promising full autonomy

Tesla chose (poorly) to call it "Full Self Driving"...I don't really find that to be ambiguous or confusing at all. It's either "Full Self Driving" or it isn't. Clearly it's not even close to "FSD" currently.

We disagree on the merits of FSD currently (and I realize I'm likely of the minority opinion on a Tesla fanboy site).

I have a colleague who bought a M3 about the same time I did. He decided to get the LR with FSD, I went with the P with no FSD. I've driven his car a few times recently (and he, mine), and from my value perspective, not only does FSD not add any value, it actually takes value away. He will also tell you, he wishes he'd gone the other route.

Tesla's auto lane change execution is about the only thing of value, but left to it's own decision making, the lane change logic is terrible. The traffic signal integration is at best: not very good. Autopark is useless (takes longer than DIYing it). Summon is cool, but not something I'd pay for and it sounds like it also has major room for improvement. Then there are the cases where it panics when it runs into an unknown situation (which happens enough to be concerning, albeit not often). With the exception of the lane change execution, these are all zero or negative values IMO.

As far as comparing it to other manufacturers, that wasn't the point of my discussion. The discussion was about whether users would make a FOMO buy before the deadline. I will not. I'm not going to pay for something that I don't think will exist. I didn't buy my car for FSD, and even if it worked 100% right now, I'm not sure I'd buy it. I like driving. I wish Tesla well and I hope I'm wrong and they get it working soon. My basic "AutoPilot" (also not a good choice of name) is good enough for me needs.
 
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Stop. You knew exactly what he meant. Drivers in the sense of people who actually enjoy cars. Defining a “True” driver is a slippery slope/fool’s game that you can play by yourself.

Anyone that has had a drivers license for more than a month isn’t excited about “driving” in traffic. So steering us back onto the FSD topic, to me, $7k to not have to drive the work commutes and other mundane driving tasks is a no brainer. FSD can always be turned off, to enjoy the fun parts of driving.

That argument ignores that you can get 90% of the work commute driven for you with 0 cost on a new Model 3. That's the point. I'd agree yet again that having no automation in the base would make the 7k 100% worth it. It's not worth 7k to avoid having to change lanes myself, which is the only tangible difference between AP and FSD on your work commute.
 
So in March 2020, I had an option of buying a LR AWD without Autopilot? What's that? No I didn't. My only options were a $0 add-on of Autopilot and a $7k addon of FSD?

That's wrong of course....seems to be a trend for you.


You absolutely could buy a LR AWD without AP in March 2019, not 2020

They didn't make it required till April.

At which point they raised the price at the exact same moment it became standard


It was never free.

But April 11th 2019 it essentially went from "paid option" to "feature you're required to take and pay $2000 for"


Here's tesla telling you you're wrong if you don't wanna take my word for it-
An Update to Our Vehicle Lineup
 
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Elon's tweets are not a promise to you when you buy a car.

I think you are confused.

Tesla advertised FSD as actual L4 (at least- arguably L5) driving as part of the purchase of FSD for years.

They only changed it to the crippled L2-only description in March 2019.


Nowhere did Tesla promise me autonomous driving when I bought by car.


But for years- to lots of buyers, they did promise that.

See attached. It's what you were promised with FSD from fall of 2016 through early 2019.

fsdprom.png
 
That's wrong of course....seems to be a trend for you.


You absolutely could buy a LR AWD without AP in March 2020.

They didn't make it required till April.

At which point they raised the price at the exact same moment it became standard


It was never free.

But April 11th 2020 it essentially went from "paid option" to "feature you're required to take and pay $2000 for"


Here's tesla telling you you're wrong if you don't wanna take my word for it-
An Update to Our Vehicle Lineup

I like how you linked a post from April 11th, 2019 ... about a change you said didn't exist in March 2020. Nice going and thanks for 100% proving my point while proving yourself wrong in the process.... seems to be a trend for you.
 
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I like how you linked a post from April 11th, 2019 ... about a change you said didn't exist in March 2020. Nice going and thanks for 100% proving my point while proving yourself wrong in the process.... seems to be a trend for you.


year in my post corrected- thanks for catching it.

But it doesn't change the facts of my original correction, or make your "it's free!" claim any less true.

The raised the price $2000 when they added AP. They EXPLICITLY SAID they were CHARGING YOU FOR AP now via a higher price but no longer giving you the choice to not get it.

So it was never "free"

You're paying the same extra $2000 for it in 2020- you just don't get a choice about doing so, as the March 2019 folks did.


Another way you can tell is, even today in July 2020, you CAN order at least one tesla model without AP (the SR) and it'll still cost you money to add it to that car.

Or you can buy the SR+ which includes AP, but cost several thousands more (and also get a tiny range boost)
 
I think you are confused.

Tesla advertised FSD as actual L4 (at least- arguably L5) driving as part of the purchase of FSD for years.

They only changed it to the crippled L2-only description in March 2019.





But for years- to lots of buyers, they did promise that.

See attached. It's what you were promised with FSD from fall of 2016 through early 2019.

View attachment 559049

Yes, I clearly mentioned that if you read the post. I'm not confused. Anyone buying FSD since early 2019 (the majority of Model 3 sales have been since then) has no reason to expect actual autonomous driving if they read what they are actually buying. I'm sorry you bought FSD early on and were mislead by Tesla, but those of us who bought it later on knew or should have known what we were signing up for. Early buyers certainly have a reason to be upset, but that edge case shouldn't be confused with the current situation.
 
year in my post corrected- thanks for catching it.

But it doesn't change the facts of my original correction, or make your "it's free!" claim any less true.

The raised the price $2000 when they added AP. They EXPLICITLY SAID they were CHARGING YOU FOR AP now via a higher price but no longer giving you the choice to not get it.

So it was never "free"

You're paying the same extra $2000 for it in 2020- you just don't get a choice about doing so, as the March 2019 folks did.


Another way you can tell is, even today in July 2020, you CAN order at least one tesla model without AP (the SR) and it'll still cost you money to add it to that car.

Or you can buy the SR+ which includes AP, but cost several thousands more (and also get a tiny range boost)
If you have no other option than to buy it .. it's part of the price .. so it's zero more. Zero=free. Sorry, but stop arguing semantics. I know that's tough for you because you LIVE to pick fights on the internet when you are generally wrong most of the time.
 
Yes, I clearly mentioned that if you read the post. I'm not confused. Anyone buying FSD since early 2019 (the majority of Model 3 sales have been since then) has no reason to expect actual autonomous driving if they read what they are actually buying. I'm sorry you bought FSD early on and were mislead by Tesla, but those of us who bought it later on knew or should have known what we were signing up for. Early buyers certainly have a reason to be upset, but that edge case shouldn't be confused with the current situation.


Yeah, nope, they still describe FSD that way today at tesla.com



Autopilot

That's on teslas website today

Guess what it says about FSD? (bold added to point out they STILL advertise FSD as L4/L5 once it's done using CURRENT hardware)

tesla.com said:
Full Self-Driving Capability
All new Tesla cars have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances. The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat.

All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. If you don’t say anything, the car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on the calendar. Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. When you arrive at your destination, simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode, automatically search for a spot and park itself. A tap on your phone summons it back to you.

The future use of these features without supervision is dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving capabilities are introduced, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.





Now- this being Tesla, it's possible they just forgot that web page existed and didn't cripple the description like they did the one where you check the purchase box.

But it's not like this isn't something they still tell folks researching NEW Teslas TODAY on their own website.
 
If you have no other option than to buy it .. it's part of the price .. so it's zero more. Zero=free. Sorry, but stop arguing semantics.
This argument is not valid and it is you who is arguing semantics.
By your argument, a Dual Motor is free since you have no other option than to buy it with Long Range (currently)
A steering wheel is free since you have no option but to buy it with a car.

Zero additional cost does NOT equal free.
 
This argument is not valid and it is you who is arguing semantics.
By your argument, a Dual Motor is free since you have no other option than to buy it with Long Range (currently)
A steering wheel is free since you have no option but to buy it with a car.

Zero additional cost does NOT equal free.
Not gonna argue it anymore because it has absolutely nothing to do with my original post. You wanna say that it costs 3k for AP fine. Then FSD is 10k. There is still a 7k upgrade cost (now 8k as of today) which was the entire freaking point of the post. I'm not arguing semantics and i wasn't the one that jumped in with the "TECHNICALLY" BS feeling like they need to correct something has absolutely nothing to do with the initial point of the post. It's free to me, I paid zero extra for it. I have to pay 7k extra for FSD. Same as whatever you justify the cost breakdown. I don't break down my car into individual costs. I don't try to figure out how much i "paid" for the Wheels because they are included.
 
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Yeah, nope, they still describe FSD that way today at tesla.com



Autopilot

That's on teslas website today

Guess what it says about FSD? (bold added to point out they STILL advertise FSD as L4/L5 once it's done using CURRENT hardware)







Now- this being Tesla, it's possible they just forgot that web page existed and didn't cripple the description like they did the one where you check the purchase box.

But it's not like this isn't something they still tell folks researching NEW Teslas TODAY on their own website.

As I said, caveat emptor. I agree Tesla advertised features in a very misleading way, probably intentionally. However, I don't think I have a legal right to complain if my car never achieves actual level 4/5 autonomy just because the autopilot page says that the car has the hardware to make the car drive in at least some conditions without human intervention in the future. Right after that it says:
The future use of these features without supervision is dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving capabilities are introduced, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software update
.

I don't see that as Tesla promising me any type of autonomy in any way that's actually legally binding. This seems to give them an out if the technology doesn't develop as fast as expected and an out if it doesn't get regulatory approval. Again, morally I take issue with Tesla's overly optimistic marketing materials, but that doesn't mean that have a legal right to an autonomous vehicle just because I paid $7K for FSD.