With a mere 5% battery degradation, could it be possible that the buffer is released over time?

[internalaudit]

Is it really possible to have that small a battery degradation over four/five years? Doesn't that kinda defy physics/chemistry?

Perhaps Tesla slowly releases the capacity buffer say from 20% down to 15 then to 10%?

Thoughts?

It might as well supply batteries to competitors once it gets its assembly in order.

 

[smartypnz]

Ha ha...

If so, an incremental increase would be evident (even a subtle one).

We do watch closely.

 

[Haxster]

Interesting strategy.

Kind of like the brightness of EL displays in the 70s dropping to about half within a few dozen hours, then stabilizing. A big problem; especially when an end-user compared new vs older identical end-products side-by-side. The solution? Burn the displays in for a hundred hours before shipping them to OEMs.

Another example:
I have two home theater projectors that use HID bulbs. They slowly lose brightness over time. I start them off in economy mode for longer life at somewhat reduced brightness. When they start to get noticeably dim, I switch to full brightness mode to squeeze more usable life out of them.

 

[cronosx]

Is it really possible to have that small a battery degradation over four/five years? Doesn't that kinda defy physics/chemistry?

Why would it? Since you know that your cell phone lose capacity a lot faster this means that this is the physical limit?
Just kind of you to ignore the fact that you charge/discharge your phone every damn day (more times a day sometime), while you don't charge/discharge every day your car battery from 0 to full, you just ignore the fact that your phone from time to time gets super hot, the fact that you leave your phone charging at 100% for a lot of hours and that sometime you discharge it to pratically 0, that the battery in your phone is optimized for size-capacity and they don't care a thing if you lose capacity in 2 years, hell they like it very much.

And of course, you just ignore the fact that the tesla battery is being disassembled from customers and checked, that tesla get hacked to get complete control etc, and no one ever found out that there is this "buffer" thing

Well, of course! they cheat! that's the only way, you can't cleary work hard on testing every combinations of chem, create collaboration with experts of the fields etc
Do your research if you think it's a scam, search about some professor that work for tesla and put up some video about how they did it and how they work

 

[EV-Bull]

Is it really possible to have that small a battery degradation over four/five years? Doesn't that kinda defy physics/chemistry?

Perhaps Tesla slowly releases the capacity buffer say from 20% down to 15 then to 10%?

Thoughts?

It might as well supply batteries to competitors once it gets its assembly in order.

Is it really possible to have that small a battery degradation over four/five years? Doesn't that kinda defy physics/chemistry?

Perhaps Tesla slowly releases the capacity buffer say from 20% down to 15 then to 10%?

Thoughts?

It might as well supply batteries to competitors once it gets its assembly in order.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did that, possibly at the annual service visits or even OTA. But as mentioned, most people don't do full charge-discharge cycles ever with their car, as opposed to with their phones which often get more than one cycle per day. And if the batteries can go 500+ cycles, they should be expected to make it 5+ years before significant degradation occurs.

 

[Runt8]

With proper thermal management degradation is minimal. Most consumer products have little to no thermal management so the batteries degrade much more quickly. That doesn't mean that it's an inherent problem.

 

[Polly Wog]

The "buffer" is there to prevent people from "bricking" their cars - letting the battery get so low that the batteries are actually damaged and can't be charged. I don't believe Tesla will ever remove this protection, even if they do reduce it a little bit.

 

[dhrivnak]

Is it really possible to have that small a battery degradation over four/five years? Doesn't that kinda defy physics/chemistry?

Perhaps Tesla slowly releases the capacity buffer say from 20% down to 15 then to 10%?

Thoughts?

It might as well supply batteries to competitors once it gets its assembly in order.

YES.

Is it really possible to have that small a battery degradation over four/five years? Doesn't that kinda defy physics/chemistry?

Perhaps Tesla slowly releases the capacity buffer say from 20% down to 15 then to 10%?

Thoughts?

It might as well supply batteries to competitors once it gets its assembly in order.

I saw 11% decline after 9 1/2 years with my Roadster so Tesla has demonstrated that is possible.

 

[internalaudit]

Why would it? Since you know that your cell phone lose capacity a lot faster this means that this is the physical limit?
Just kind of you to ignore the fact that you charge/discharge your phone every damn day (more times a day sometime), while you don't charge/discharge every day your car battery from 0 to full, you just ignore the fact that your phone from time to time gets super hot, the fact that you leave your phone charging at 100% for a lot of hours and that sometime you discharge it to pratically 0, that the battery in your phone is optimized for size-capacity and they don't care a thing if you lose capacity in 2 years, hell they like it very much.

And of course, you just ignore the fact that the tesla battery is being disassembled from customers and checked, that tesla get hacked to get complete control etc, and no one ever found out that there is this "buffer" thing

Well, of course! they cheat! that's the only way, you can't cleary work hard on testing every combinations of chem, create collaboration with experts of the fields etc
Do your research if you think it's a scam, search about some professor that work for tesla and put up some video about how they did it and how they work

It's not cheating in my books. It's being creative. The important thing to the owner is the actual driving range and if it stays to the initial range, so much the better, no matter what goes behind in the background.

I just stumbled upon this article. How does the TMS actually prevent all of these from happening besides slowing them down?

What causes Lithium-ion to die? – Battery University

The four suspected renegades that are responsible for capacity loss and the eventual end-of-life of the Li-ion battery are:

1. Mechanical degradation of electrodes or loss of stack pressure in pouch-type cells. Careful cells design and correct electrolyte additives minimize this cause.
2. Growth of the solid electrolyte interface (SEI) on the anode that forms a barrier and obstructs the interaction with graphite.
3. Formation of the electrolyte oxidation at the cathode that may lead to sudden capacity loss. Keeping the cells at a high voltage and at an elevated temperature promotes this phenomenon.
4. Lithium-plating on the surface of the anode caused by high charging rates. (The elevated capacity loss at higher C-rates in Figure 4 could be caused by this.)

 

[gregincal]

It's not cheating in my books. It's being creative. The important thing to the owner is the actual driving range and if it stays to the initial range, so much the better, no matter what goes behind in the background.

I just stumbled upon this article. How does the TMS actually prevent all of these from happening besides slowing them down?

What causes Lithium-ion to die? – Battery University

The four suspected renegades that are responsible for capacity loss and the eventual end-of-life of the Li-ion battery are:

1. Mechanical degradation of electrodes or loss of stack pressure in pouch-type cells. Careful cells design and correct electrolyte additives minimize this cause.
2. Growth of the solid electrolyte interface (SEI) on the anode that forms a barrier and obstructs the interaction with graphite.
3. Formation of the electrolyte oxidation at the cathode that may lead to sudden capacity loss. Keeping the cells at a high voltage and at an elevated temperature promotes this phenomenon.
4. Lithium-plating on the surface of the anode caused by high charging rates. (The elevated capacity loss at higher C-rates in Figure 4 could be caused by this.)

It doesn't prevent those things from happening. They do happen. The batteries degrade. 5% degradation is 5% degradation. Slowing down degradation is all we are talking about here. #3 is the worst, and that the one that Tesla does the most to prevent by regulating the battery temperature and recommending that people don't let their car sit with more than a 90% charge.

 

[cronosx]

It's not cheating in my books. It's being creative.

Not at all, at the best, is only "underselling", meaning you tell people you have 50kw, and you have in reality 55kw, but it's not what's happening or at least, only in the context of under-selling the model 3 in general... but again, they aren't doing it or else we will know.
The point is, the battery have "just" a good chemistry,since it seems to me you don't want to be snappy or similar ( sorry for the outburst before, it was just a bad day ) and you really want to learn something, here you are, the video i was telling you before

this same professor and his team are in partnership with tesla for advancing the battery tech, you can find more article just searching is name and more video

 

[X Fan]

Interesting strategy.

Kind of like the brightness of EL displays in the 70s dropping to about half within a few dozen hours, then stabilizing. A big problem; especially when an end-user compared new vs older identical end-products side-by-side. The solution? Burn the displays in for a hundred hours before shipping them to OEMs.

Another example:
I have two home theater projectors that use HID bulbs. They slowly lose brightness over time. I start them off in economy mode for longer life at somewhat reduced brightness. When they start to get noticeably dim, I switch to full brightness mode to squeeze more usable life out of them.

Solution for home theater: get a laser projector. Minimal degradation over useful life and great picture.

Solution for Tesla: who knows but I love my X ( less than 2% rated degradation after 35k and 19 months ) and looking forward to adding a 3.

 

[Haxster]

Solution for home theater: get a laser projector. Minimal degradation over useful life and great picture.

Agree. But 4 and 8 years ago, laser projectors were barely/not available...and VERY expensive.

 

[dgpcolorado]

I'm down about 10% so no, I don't buy the OP's hypothesis.

(May 2014 build, 42k miles, 168+ Supercharges.)

 

[Reciprocity]

Is it really possible to have that small a battery degradation over four/five years? Doesn't that kinda defy physics/chemistry?

Perhaps Tesla slowly releases the capacity buffer say from 20% down to 15 then to 10%?

Thoughts?

It might as well supply batteries to competitors once it gets its assembly in order.

Yes, I believe this is what they are doing with the model 3 and all 2170 based vehicles in the future. It's why there is no model 3-75 and instead it's the model 3-LR. The rated range will stay around 310 even though the car is capable of going 340 off the lot. There will always be an a anti brick percentage at the bottom if the "tank" of 2-4%. This would allow for upwards of 10 years of no noticable loss of rated range. I believe the buffer will be split between the top and the bottom, allowing for a small reserve tank.. my X already has 10 miles of range at 0%. I believe they are doing this because every human on the planet drives until the empty light comes on then drives 20 more miles. Admit it, you do it too.

 

[SSedan]

If they slowly released the buffer wouldn't that be harder on the battery as you were allowed to use those parts of the battery thereby increasing degradation?

 

[shokunin]

I believe the buffer will be split between the top and the bottom, allowing for a small reserve tank.. my X already has 10 miles of range at 0%. I believe they are doing this because every human on the planet drives until the empty light comes on then drives 20 more miles. Admit it, you do it too.

This is bad advice, you shouldn't "expect" xx miles of range below 0%. While you may have 10 miles today, on a cold day or any other day those 10 miles may not be there. The "empty" light is the yellow and red warning indicators before you hit 0%.

The amount of available energy will fluctuate based on temperature, resistance of the pack, voltage, etc and the BMS is trying it's best to estimate how much is left across all modules. Even Bjorn's car stopped with 12? km of range left and had to be towed a few kilometers to reach his supercharger destination.

 

[03DSG]

I'm down about 10% so no, I don't buy the OP's hypothesis.

(May 2014 build, 42k miles, 168+ Supercharges.)

The math says 250 miles per supercharge? Do you only supercharge?

 

[X Fan]

Agree. But 4 and 8 years ago, laser projectors were barely/not available...and VERY expensive.

For sure re: where pricing used to be.

Epson's imputed 4K with hdr is the best value with a sub $8k price. Great blacks and terrific for both movies and Netflix/Satellite view.

Sony's is pure but much more costly.

 

[dgpcolorado]

The math says 250 miles per supercharge? Do you only supercharge?

No, I have no local Supercharger Stations at all — the nearest is 98 miles away. All of my Supercharging sessions are on road trips.

I mentioned it because it is possible that Supercharging contributes to battery degradation, although there are other possibilities, of course. I get tired of those who crow about how little Tesla batteries degrade over time and miles. That has not been my experience.