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Yay ! We can now resume the elephant slaughter for trophies !

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#41
rxlawdude said:
Your argument is the same as how trickle down economics supposedly benefits those in the middle and lower classes, by cutting taxes on the wealthy.
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If you say so.

Let's say I accept your argument and it is the same as trickle-down economics. Ok. As I said before, tell me about your brilliant idea to solve the problem.

I am not saying that charging an inordinate amount for hunting tags to combat illegal poaching is the only solution. I hope there are better more elegant methods but I have not seen any articulated by you or anyone else yet. This is a problem that can be solved by the infusion of capital. Perhaps some kind of fundraising campaign could work, but it has been tried already. So far It seems no one wants to pony up as much as those who get their jollies out of this type of hunting.
 
#44
Merrill said:
Ok, somebody is going to have to explain to me how this is good for the species, if the elephant is an endangered species and you allow more to be killed how is this a good thing.
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The theory is that you let someone kill an 'excess' animal, such as a non-breeding male.
You charge a fortune for the 'privilege' and use that money for conservation of the whole herd.

It's one of those things that makes sense on paper, but just doesn't feel right. I also can't understand the mind of someone that wants to kill an elephant.
 
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#45
RubberToe said:
Here ya go, Making America Great Again one dead elephant at a time...

U.S. Lifts Ban On Importing Elephant Trophies From Zimbabwe And Zambia

I would like to formally apologize to everyone in the world, on behalf of the dozen or so sane people left in this country. I am truly ashamed to be an American.

RT

P.S. Wait a minute, isn't the elephant the mascot of one of the political parties? With any luck, the party in question will find their way to extinction before the species they are trying to destroy.
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Oh snap! Another knee-jerk response to science that has nothing to do with reality.

1) Against good policy, the POTUS rejected the US Fish and Game's request for importation of trophies.

2) By doing so, elephant population management will suffer:

"The Fish and Wildlife Service said it had found that allowing trophy imports would help the conservation of elephants in those countries, a finding that allows it to authorize the import of the African elephant under the terms of the Endangered Species Act, which lists the African elephant as threatened.


"Legal, well-regulated sport hunting as part of a sound management program can benefit certain species by providing incentives to local communities to conserve those species and by putting much-needed revenue back into conservation," the service said in a statement to NPR. "The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has determined that the hunting and management programs for African elephants in Zimbabwe and Zambia will enhance the survival of the species in the wild."

Next stop? We have to deal with Endangered Feces like Gilda Radner suggested on SNL.

Perhaps a new US Dept of Psychics to help license all true Psychics in the US before they kill us all with their mind rays?
 
#46
SageBrush said:
That is ass-backwards. Extradite the illegal killers, then the locals will have decision making power.

All you are saying is "hey, we paid, so any local atrocity is their fault."
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If it were possible to extradite the illegal killers it would have been done already.
Bad guys travel in, good locals turn bad, good people do bad things for good reasons, and so on.
The secret is to tilt the incentives, make bad behavior riskier and less rewarding.
 
#47
ShockOnT said:
The theory is that you let someone kill an 'excess' animal, such as a non-breeding male.
You charge a fortune for the 'privilege' and use that money for conservation of the whole herd.

It's one of those things that makes sense on paper, but just doesn't feel right. I also can't understand the mind of someone that wants to kill an elephant.
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You do realize that scientists spend their entire careers studying population control of life forms on earth, right?

Some folk don't believe that airplanes 'feel right'. 750,000lb and 40,000' ASL @ 600mph? What could go wrong with that? Everybody dies if the vertical decent rate is off by too much, or landing target is off by 100 yards at 150 mph.

Luckily scientists and engineers solve these kind issues unless uneducated folk stop them. No, a liberal arts degree or law degree doesn't give you any more background than a HS education when it comes to ecology or aerodynamics.

Take a night class in ecosystems and get enlightened.

Trivia - The most dangerous wild animal on earth? Deer by a wide margin. Most human deaths occur where deer are overpopulated to the point of starvation so they must graze next to road or in the median. This is why the road kill deer tend to be smaller BTW.

Trivia Too - The Bambi Generation has lowered hunting to such a level that we pay Federal Employees ~$60-100k a year to kill them to keep them from destroying their own habitat. Restrictions on hunting mean that instead of a profit center, it is now a cost center in many areas. Hunters used to pay, now we hire hunters for big bucks (har).
 
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#48
McRat said:
You do realize that scientists spend their entire careers studying population control of life forms on earth, right?

Some folk don't believe that airplanes 'feel right'. 750,000lb and 40,000' ASL @ 600mph? What could go wrong with that? Everybody dies if the vertical decent rate is off by too much, or landing target is off by 100 yards at 150 mph.

Luckily scientists and engineers solve these kind issues unless uneducated folk stop them. No, a liberal arts degree or law degree doesn't give you any more background than a HS education when it comes to ecology or aerodynamics.

Take a night class in ecosystems and get enlightened.

Trivia - The most dangerous wild animal on earth? Deer by a wide margin. Most human deaths occur where deer are overpopulated to the point of starvation so they must graze next to road or in the median.
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Ironic you seem to think I don't understand science, and use the 'strangeness' of aircraft flight as a talking point. I'm a biomedical engineer with a science degree and a pilots license.
I grew up in rural Australia on a cattle farm and understand ecosystems, agriculture and animal welfare. I understand the difficult decisions that have to be made when managing animals and land. I've castrated, killed and skinned animals larger than you or me, but not for pleasure.
I find it obscene to pay for the privilege of killing an animal. I understand that by not doing so one could effectively be killing more by proxy, which would make it the logical thing to do, but it doesn't make it feel right.
 
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#49
Most people here probably find pedophilia fairly despicable, but unfortunately there is just not enough resources available to protect the vulnerable and innocent.

OK, then lets be practical. We'll legalize the practice, but charge for a license. Best would be to encourage the sport happen in other countries so it does not offend our sensitivities. Who knows, some of the license fees might even be spent on Social Workers.
 
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#50
ShockOnT said:
Ironic you seem to think I don't understand science, and use the 'strangeness' of aircraft flight as a talking point. I'm a biomedical engineer with a science degree and a pilots license.
I grew up in rural Australia on a cattle farm and understand ecosystems, agriculture and animal welfare. I understand the difficult decisions that have to be made when managing animals and land. I've castrated, killed and skinned animals larger than you or me, but not for pleasure.
I find it obscene to pay for the privilege of killing an animal. I understand that by not doing so one could effectively be killing more by proxy, which would make it the logical thing to do, but it doesn't make it feel right.
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But you are OK with high paid government folk being paid to kill wild animals? Talk about irony...

There are several species in Australia that either overpopulated or endangered. Some are due to imported species, some are native species.

The US Dept of Fish and Game has scientists we pay for to study issues such as the Elephant Issue.

A pilot's license is not enough to engineer a plane, nor is a biomed area of concentration involve ecology unless your firm is working with ecologists to design population solutions.

I'm no expert. Yeah, I work on flight hardware, have flown a 172 solo, seen how bleeding edge aero tech is constructed before it hits the market. I do work on heart valves and other medical devices as well, but only have a single semester of ecology which included the basics of population effects and controls. I'm not qualified to make game control decisions, but I am qualified to say that paying taxes to kill wild animals is dumb when you can collect fees for hunting licenses and tags.

This is actually a Political Discussion. Trump extended the Elephant Trophy Ban which makes him evil. No, he's just doing the 'people' want. Yes, the first post is wrong, but you get to hate the POTUS regardless of what decisions he makes or does not make. If he puts his left shoe on first he's Satan, if he puts his right shoe on first he's Stalin.
 
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#51
#53
deonb said:
This seems to me less about conservation, and more about passing judgement onto people who has a different lifestyle from yours.
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Yes. It's a question of how a task is done.

The problem is, it is not 'conservation' when populations require control due to habitat destruction. You either pay to reduce the populations in areas, or you collect income from it. But it does have to be done for true conservation.
 
#55
Everything in life is about perspective. Right? From my perspective X is offensive, but Y isn't because I haven't been exposed to environment or my social norms don't give this any consideration. I wouldn't say this is a lifestyle discussion, its a revenue discussion.
Question: Should we allow paid culling of overpopulated animal herds, and charge the rich "SCUM" to do so, using that money to pay the park rangers to keep the poor "SCUM" from over harvesting in extremely poor 3rd world countries? Or do we remove all controls and have an elephant all you can eat buffet for the starving poor populations of the world?

Having lived in Africa for 3 years, none of it matters, the corruption is out of control, the park rangers are collecting monies from the rich to run the programs and then when Christmas comes around and they need extra cash, they pop a few extra animals for a bonus. Then if they really need extra monies they go down town with the AK-47 and terrorize the unarmed populations, and become the local terrorist group to collect, vehicles, women (usually young ones because they are perceived to be disease free) money, and the take over the local government.

Here is some perspective:
The War the World Forgot
 
#56
Xenoilphobe said:
Everything in life is about perspective. Right? From my perspective X is offensive, but Y isn't because I haven't been exposed to environment or my social norms don't give this any consideration. I wouldn't say this is a lifestyle discussion, its a revenue discussion.

Question: Should we allow paid culling of overpopulated animal herds, and charge the rich "SCUM" to do so, using that money to pay the park rangers to keep the poor "SCUM" from over harvesting in extremely poor 3rd world countries? Or do we remove all controls and have an elephant all you can eat buffet for the starving poor populations of the world?
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This part is a good and rational discussion, but ...

Xenoilphobe said:
Having lived in Africa for 3 years, none of it matters, the corruption is out of control, the park rangers are collecting monies from the rich to run the programs and then when Christmas comes around and they need extra cash, they pop a few extra animals for a bonus. Then if they really need extra monies they go down town with the AK-47 and terrorize the unarmed populations, and become the local terrorist group to collect, vehicles, women (usually young ones because they are perceived to be disease free) money, and the take over the local government.
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... generalize much?
 
#58
Yes I made a general statement to show how the monies can morph beyond the intended mission. Not all programs have this problem, but without oversight and good management (which is lacking) it can get this bad.

I lived in Sudan for 3 years (80-83), when I was there the Khartoum based Arab government was busy stealing the imported flour and trucks intended for the South. The corruption was out of control. In Afghanistan, i spent 4.5 years there, and they made the Sudanese look like amateurs when it came to corruption.

Maybe its changed, but from my perspective Sudan was on a downward spiral, Africa is huge, but look at EG on the other coast, same stuff, just different location.

Corruption Index - Countries - List | Africa
 
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#59
deonb said:
Yes it is. It's obvious that you don't like hunting, and you don't like people who like hunting.
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As is pedophilia ?
Serial murderers ?

Just lifestyle differences ?

As for perspectives, let me share this: I spent years of my youth in the infantry and paratroop corp, and have experienced war up close and personal. I know what it means to hunt and be hunted. Your so called "hunting" is a coward's game of murder for entertainment.
 
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