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[UPDATED] 2 die in Tesla crash - NHTSA reports driver seat occupied

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There are dozens of news reports from all over about this accident. At some point it becomes like the game Telephone, as info gets passed on it gets tweaked and the meaning or statements get skewed. Without a reporter re-interviewing some of these people who were at the scene that Saturday night or unless they offer up statements to the press like that one Woodlands Township Fire Department person did clarifying things, I suspect some witnesses have been told because this is a fatal accident and investigation not to speak about it unless to officials and we won’t be getting some of our questions answered anytime soon.

A good interviewer will know which questions to ask and seek to clarify any ambiguities that are foreseen ahead of time. Don’t always have a second chance to talk to someone.
I've read several different articles and they all have different times. Some say "around 9 pm". Others mention the fire department was dispatched just before 9:30 pm for a forest fire but discovered a car fire at 9:30 pm. Several articles state the accident happened at 11:25 pm! I really doubt the accident happened two hours after the fire department showed up to put out the fire.
 
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Yes, yes you should.

No video, but I was out and about last night dropping the boy off at practice, and I tried activating AP on all manner of similar back roads and every single time got the yellow warning that it was unavailable.

Also, I activated TACC, ramped it up to 70, turned it off, then reactivated it. I want to say it came back on at like 15 MPH.

I probably should make a video tonight.
 
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So according to that video from the UK, all it takes is a few white lines down the center of the road and you can enable AP on any road. Also on Dirty Tesla's video if there are a couple of white lines beside you, you can enable AP.
After you have enabled AP it will stay active regardless of the road conditions.

If the Texas car didn't have FSD then it wouldn't autosteer though. Perhaps that's why it crashed?

There are ZERO markings on that road except for the stop bar at the end. NONE.
 
I'm more concerned how the battery supposedly exploded. From the burnt and melted wreckage, it appears that the frontal impact could not have reached the battery. You can still see the front motor that took some of the impact but appears to still be located in front of the battery pack.
There was a manhole a foot or so above the ground on the car's way. That could damage the battery. But that is really strange based on fireman account that they where cooling down the battery. If there was such a strong initial battery runoff that some parts shoot 50 ft up the tree, I am surprised any batteries left in the battery enclosure by the time the fire crew came. To me, it looks like an intentionally set explosion in or around the frank of the car.
 
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I'm more concerned how the battery supposedly exploded. From the burnt and melted wreckage, it appears that the frontal impact could not have reached the battery. You can still see the front motor that took some of the impact but appears to still be located in front of the battery pack.
Indications are it didn’t explode, but caught fire. In one of the videos, the wrecker placed the forward motor on the car. It was loose.
 
I've read several different articles and they all have different times. Some say "around 9 pm". Others mention the fire department was dispatched just before 9:30 pm for a forest fire but discovered a car fire at 9:30 pm. Several articles state the accident happened at 11:25 pm! I really doubt the accident happened two hours after the fire department showed up to put out the fire.
I noticed this too. I'd actually blame this on reporters...
 
from ‘No one was driving the car’: 2 men dead after fiery Tesla crash near The Woodlands, officials say
1) "Harris County Precinct 4 Constable Mark Herman told KPRC 2 that the investigation showed “no one was driving” the fully electric 2019 Tesla when the accident happened." .... He said he believes it wasn’t being driven by a human.
We know that 1) is highly improbable considering a <400 ft overall distance, high speed, and no lane marks. What this actually shows is that Constable Herman has a personal belief involved in this investigation.

2) KPRC 2 reporter Deven Clarke spoke to one man’s brother-in-law who said he was taking the car out for a spin with his best friend, so there were just two in the vehicle. The owner, he said, backed out of the driveway, and then may have hopped in the back seat only to crash a few hundred yards down the road. He said the owner was found in the back seat upright.
The brother-in-law claims he hasn't actually seen the owner "hopping" in the back seat, but apparently makes this suggestion based on what the police (Constable Herman?) told him.

3) The brother-in-law of one of the victims said relatives watched the car burn for four hours as authorities tried to tap out the flames.
Authorities said they used 32,000 gallons of water to extinguish the flames because the vehicle’s batteries kept reigniting. At one point, Herman said, deputies had to call Tesla to ask them how to put out the fire in the battery.


Now these are, at minimum, the statements of questionable validity by both the brother-in-law and Herman, considering the following:
In a statement to the Houston Chronicle, Palmer Buck, fire chief for The Woodlands Township Fire Department, noted that contrary to some reports in the media, the Tesla Model S fire did not burn out of control for four hours.
Interestingly enough, Buck remarked that his team actually managed to put down the fire within two to three minutes, which was enough for authorities to see that there were occupants in the vehicle. After these first two to three minutes, it was only a matter of keeping the batteries as cool as possible by pouring small amounts of water into the damaged battery pack. Buck described the fire department’s strategy in the following statement.
“With respect to the fire fight, unfortunately, those rumors grew way out of control. It did not take us four hours to put out the blaze. Our guys got there and put down the fire within two to three minutes, enough to see the vehicle had occupants. After that, it was simply cooling the car as the batteries continued to have a chain reaction due to damage.
“We could not tear it apart or move it around to get ‘final extinguishment’ because the fact that we had two bodies in there and it was then an investigation-slash-crime scene. We had to keep it cool, were on scene for four hours, but we were simply pouring a little bit of water on it. It was not because flames were coming out. It was a reaction in the battery pan. It was not an active fire,” Buck said.

“We did not (call Tesla), and I do not know where (that rumor) came from. There is a chance someone else did, maybe the Harris County Fire Marshal, but we did not call (Tesla). Tesla has an emergency manual for first responders,

And now this from Texas police to demand Tesla crash data as Musk denies Autopilot use | Reuters
"We have witness statements from people that said they left to test drive the vehicle without a driver and to show the friend how it can drive itself," Herman said.

So, if Herman refers to the brother-in-law as a witness then either one of them is lying or both lie. I'd ask the question if they know each other. There could be other witnesses of course but we haven't heard anything about them. I think I remember the victims wives were mentioned along the same indecisive witness account as the brother-in-law.

Without a driver does NOT mean without anyone in the driver's seat.
 
from ‘No one was driving the car’: 2 men dead after fiery Tesla crash near The Woodlands, officials say
1) "Harris County Precinct 4 Constable Mark Herman told KPRC 2 that the investigation showed “no one was driving” the fully electric 2019 Tesla when the accident happened." .... He said he believes it wasn’t being driven by a human.
We know that 1) is highly improbable considering a <400 ft overall distance, high speed, and no lane marks. What this actually shows is that Constable Herman has a personal belief involved in this investigation.

2) KPRC 2 reporter Deven Clarke spoke to one man’s brother-in-law who said he was taking the car out for a spin with his best friend, so there were just two in the vehicle. The owner, he said, backed out of the driveway, and then may have hopped in the back seat only to crash a few hundred yards down the road. He said the owner was found in the back seat upright.
The brother-in-law claims he hasn't actually seen the owner "hopping" in the back seat, but apparently makes this suggestion based on what the police (Constable Herman?) told him.

3) The brother-in-law of one of the victims said relatives watched the car burn for four hours as authorities tried to tap out the flames.
Authorities said they used 32,000 gallons of water to extinguish the flames because the vehicle’s batteries kept reigniting. At one point, Herman said, deputies had to call Tesla to ask them how to put out the fire in the battery.


Now these are, at minimum, the statements of questionable validity by both the brother-in-law and Herman, considering the following:
In a statement to the Houston Chronicle, Palmer Buck, fire chief for The Woodlands Township Fire Department, noted that contrary to some reports in the media, the Tesla Model S fire did not burn out of control for four hours.
Interestingly enough, Buck remarked that his team actually managed to put down the fire within two to three minutes, which was enough for authorities to see that there were occupants in the vehicle. After these first two to three minutes, it was only a matter of keeping the batteries as cool as possible by pouring small amounts of water into the damaged battery pack. Buck described the fire department’s strategy in the following statement.
“With respect to the fire fight, unfortunately, those rumors grew way out of control. It did not take us four hours to put out the blaze. Our guys got there and put down the fire within two to three minutes, enough to see the vehicle had occupants. After that, it was simply cooling the car as the batteries continued to have a chain reaction due to damage.
“We could not tear it apart or move it around to get ‘final extinguishment’ because the fact that we had two bodies in there and it was then an investigation-slash-crime scene. We had to keep it cool, were on scene for four hours, but we were simply pouring a little bit of water on it. It was not because flames were coming out. It was a reaction in the battery pan. It was not an active fire,” Buck said.

“We did not (call Tesla), and I do not know where (that rumor) came from. There is a chance someone else did, maybe the Harris County Fire Marshal, but we did not call (Tesla). Tesla has an emergency manual for first responders,

And now this from Texas police to demand Tesla crash data as Musk denies Autopilot use | Reuters
"We have witness statements from people that said they left to test drive the vehicle without a driver and to show the friend how it can drive itself," Herman said.

So, if Herman refers to the brother-in-law as a witness then either one of them is lying or both lie. I'd ask the question if they know each other. There could be other witnesses of course but we haven't heard anything about them. I think I remember the victims wives were mentioned along the same indecisive witness account as the brother-in-law.

I guess I'm not seeing anyone necessarily "lying".

#1 Constable Statement:
For example in your first article you mention that the constable says no one was driving the vehicle at the time of the crash. That statement was likely based on the evidence at the scene (e.g. position of the vehicle, skid marks, crumple zone, position of passengers, eyewitness/video, etc...). I did not read that as conjecture on AP or FSD as many seem to be assuming he is insinuating. Actually, my first thought was that the driver was showing off and not in the driver's seat (likely passenger seat) and somehow lost control. Either way if the crash scene investigator says no one was driving I have no reason to doubt that as the evidence in most crash scenes (for someone who does this for a living) would be obvious.

#2 Brother In Law # Statement
My read of the Brother in Law's statement is he is speculating what he think may have happened (e.g. driver backed out car and then hopped in passenger or rear seat). I did not read in the above (or any other article) where that was posited as anything other than conjecture. I have not seen where that was taken as fact by anyone (police or press). I think some may be extrapolating. Net net, I do not read lying at all. I just see the Brother in Law speculating.

#3 Fire
According to what the Fire Chief said in your article I can see how some may say the ar "burned" for hours as they did had to dump water on the battery for quite some time.

As far as calling Tesla, I may have missed it but the constable's people and/or another agency may well have done that. I did not see where it was shown that no one called Tesla. I see where the Harris country Fire Dept didn't but that just says that they didn't call. Logic dictates that no other inferences can be made as far as anyone/agency else involved not calling Tesla
 
Could the Tesla records about the owner not buying FSD wrong? It happened to me. I did not order my car (T3) with FSD but paid $3000 for FSD when I took delivery and they amended the invoice. I received all the FSD updates just like others and FSD seem to have worked for me. As this car is mostly driven by my wife I did not get to drive that much. Finally I put out a Service call to upgrade my computer. Then they came back saying I have to pay $5000 or so for that. I sent them the copy of my invoice (strangely it was on their website too) and they replaced my computer for free and now I do have FSD. So Musk saying they did not buy FSD could be wrong.
Tesla never admits wrong. They don't make mistakes. Any critique is considered an attack. You must be a shorter.
 
I'm more concerned how the battery supposedly exploded. From the burnt and melted wreckage, it appears that the frontal impact could not have reached the battery. You can still see the front motor that took some of the impact but appears to still be located in front of the battery pack.
Going off road is hazardous to the underbelly of the vehicle. Doubly true at high speed.
 
Without a driver does NOT mean without anyone in the driver's seat.
You mean like this?
1619018235761.png
 
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No video, but I was out and about last night dropping the boy off at practice, and I tried activating AP on all manner of similar back roads and every single time got the yellow warning that it was unavailable.

Also, I activated TACC, ramped it up to 70, turned it off, then reactivated it. I want to say it came back on at like 15 MPH.

I probably should make a video tonight.

Do you have Basic AP, EAP, or FSD?

The problem with activating AP is that we either know or we have reason to believe that Basic AP has different requirements for activating AP. In Elons tweet he specifically said "standard Autopilot would require lane lines to turn on".

I'm not sure what point there is in being able to activate the current FSD on roads without lanes, but for some reason FSD allows for this at least in some cases.
 
Good luck calling Tesla. The caller would most likely have gotten a recording telling them to make a service appointment via the Phone App.
The Tesla Model S Emergency Response Guide for First and Second Responders gives this information:

Contact Us
First Responders and Second Responders with emergencies, call Tesla Roadside Assistance.
Refer to Roadside Assistance for the applicable number.
The Model S Owner’s Manual and first responder information can be found at www.tesla.com/firstresponders
First responders and training officers who have questions, contact [email protected].


www.tesla.com/support/roadside-assistance gets to this:
Roadside Assistance United States
Toll Free: 877 798 3752
 
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People are attributing this incident to either drunkenness or even stupidity, but it almost looks like a suicide by motor vehicle. As more facts become available it's clear that original news story, sad as it may be, was fraught with misinformation.
Well I don't think so, but I suppose anything is possible. If I were an anesthesiologist, I can thing of a MUCH MORE comfortable way to die and have access to the drugs ;)
 
It doesn’t matters if they bought fsd or not.

I was actually wrong about this.

Technically it does matter because the activation requirements for AP is different whether someone has Basic AP or FSD.

I simply didn't realize that when I responded with the same answer. Now sure it doesn't matter as it pertains to the accident since AP wasn't activated.

The owner didn't have FSD so he couldn't have activated it on that road
The logs say AP wasn't activated.

Tons of people are accusing Elon of Lying because of videos showing AP activating on roads without lines. But, I don't know if any of those are with Basic AP.
 
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Tesla never admits wrong. They don't make mistakes. Any critique is considered an attack. You must be a shorter.
What a lie - you just have to listen to quarterly ER where Musk talks about various mistakes they made - esp. around production rampup (or when they had to fly in the tires, for eg). Infact I've not seen any CEO so readily admit mistakes ...
 
The owner didn't have FSD so he couldn't have activated it on that road
The logs say AP wasn't activated.

Tons of people are accusing Elon of Lying because of videos showing AP activating on roads without lines. But, I don't know if any of those are with Basic AP.
Yeah, Elon has a tough call to please everyone. On one hand he must be able to see the videos showing people doing silly things just as we can see them, we know he responds sometimes to random tweets so he does read them. So he would know you can activate AP in places outside its design intent. On the other hand he doesn't have to encourage it, so he could stick to the company line and say that AP cannot be activated on roads without line markings. Just because road seams and concrete curbs may fool the software today is just something that can be fixed in software. It's not supposed to work so he can pretend that it won't activate. (I'm just playing Devil's Advocate a bit here.)
 
I was actually wrong about this.

Technically it does matter because the activation requirements for AP is different whether someone has Basic AP or FSD.

I simply didn't realize that when I responded with the same answer. Now sure it doesn't matter as it pertains to the accident since AP wasn't activated.

The owner didn't have FSD so he couldn't have activated it on that road
The logs say AP wasn't activated.

Tons of people are accusing Elon of Lying because of videos showing AP activating on roads without lines. But, I don't know if any of those are with Basic AP.
Hmmm. I’m not sure about that. I have fsd and I can’t activate it on roads without lane markings...... I can activate tacc....

what are the differences?
 
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