2018 Model 3 "stealth performance" ... that actually isn't

[davewill]

One thing I dont agree with however is whomoever bought a car from you getting "stiffed" by not having a performance vehicle, and "naturally assuming you screwed them over". That would be because you WOULD HAVE screwed them over, because you knew you didnt buy a performance vehicle. If you sold it to them as such, you would have mis represented what you bought.

Hardly the main point of all this. I have every confidence that if he'd traded it in, giving full disclosure of the actual model of the car, that info would never have made it though the usual process of wholesale auction and resale by a used car dealer. Even a couple of private sales would likely have resulted in the information being lost either though malice or through carelessness (it was my late husband's car, I dont know much about it )

 

[jjrandorin]

Hardly the main point of all this. I have every confidence that if he'd traded it in, giving full disclosure of the actual model of the car, that info would never have made it though the usual process of wholesale auction and resale by a used car dealer. Even a couple of private sales would likely have resulted in the information being lost either though malice or through carelessness (it was my late husband's car, I dont know much about it )

Sure, if sold to a dealership, thats what would happen. Most people dont care about what would happen to a dealership. If sold to a person directly, is what I was talking about.

I was talking specifically about this quote:

And exactly as devewill said, if I had happened to try to sell my vehicle before the 2021 update, the one who purchased from me would be the one who got "stuck" with an unexpected reversion in functionality. They would also naturally assume that I had somehow "screwed" them over.

And my point was, in that scenario, they would be correct in feeling that way, because that would be what had happened.

 

[SoundMixer]

A MVPA wont help a used car buyer either, unless its from the first owner. The only thing thats messed up here in my opinion is that you should have never been able to leave the lot with the car being a P, or they should have caught it much sooner (like within a few days).

You know you didnt buy a performance vehicle and readily admit that fact. Tesla did this with people who "got" FSD for free for some period of time too. We have reports on the forums from people who bought a car from someone with FSD, thought it would stay (because its supposed to) then during whatever audit tesla does when the vehicle changes hands removed it.

One thing I dont agree with however is whomoever bought a car from you getting "stiffed" by not having a performance vehicle, and "naturally assuming you screwed them over". That would be because you WOULD HAVE screwed them over, because you knew you didnt buy a performance vehicle. If you sold it to them as such, you would have mis represented what you bought.

Still, tesla needs to do better on their auditing. The big miss here is them not having your car setup properly when you bought it, and then not removing it right away. If you had gotten something "for free" with the vehicle, it would still have been on your monroney / MVPA so I dont buy "I thought they just gave it to me for free and knew about it."

What I do buy, is "I knew I didnt buy a P, but it was there, so I just didnt say anything and kept it figuring they would fix it later, or not". They took too long to fix it, which is the big miss here, but there isnt any recourse, and this has nothing to do with being a "valued customer". it has to do with buying a connected car, with a software feature that was enabled by mistake and took way to long to correct.

I agree with much of everything you said, especially:
- "you should have never been able to leave the lot with the car being a P, or they should have caught it much sooner (like within a few days)" ... 100%
- "still, tesla needs to do better on their auditing." ... yes, and this is the foundational point of my posting this thread, to raise awareness that Tesla has NOT historically done "well" with their auditing, and to hopefully prevent future surprises to future tesla owners (whether they be used or new)
- "WOULD HAVE screwed them over" ... indeed, representing that would have been bad, at the very least I would need to be upfront about the fact that it currently "thinks" it is a P ... but caution that, I didn't pay for it, so it would be within feasibility that at some point in the future Tesla may get their act together; thankfully I never did that, so I can sleep pretty ok at night


The one thing that I don't really see eye-to-eye with you is 'this has nothing to do with being a "valued customer" '. Given that, clearly, this was Tesla's screw-up, and it was long-standing one at that ... and, as is my understanding that software was the only difference, it doesn't seem like Tesla really cared as much about customer loyalty and goodwill here as they cared about hoping that maybe I got "hooked" on a feature I didn't pay for and that once they take it away I will fork over $ for something approximating it (e.g., Boost).

Given that it wouldn't have "cost" Tesla anything to leave things alone ("misconfigured" for almost 3 years), I struggle to derive a sense of "valued customer" from the unceremonious, and uncommunicated, de-spec'ing of my vehicle.. That behavior doesn't feel like something one would do if one was keeping a customer's experience as a top-of-mind concern.

Oh well, I have enjoyed, and continue to enjoy driving my M3. So at the end of the day I "got what I paid for" ... and so it is "ok" in the end. I don't have to be "valued" to derive "value" out of my purchase. I guess my enthusiasm for Tesla is a bit marginalized by this encounter, is all.

I thought that a community of Tesla enthusiasts would appreciate hearing this account, perhaps I was incorrect.


"""

 

[SoundMixer]

This whole thread scares the beejesus out of me. I purchased a 2018 stealth performance about 8 months ago from CarMax. Who knows if it's accurate or not. It even came with the red underlined badge.

Sorry to instill fear. I only meant to instill caution. Maybe you are in the clear because my de-spec'ing apparently happened in 2021. If your 2018 survived the 2021 update, then seems reasonable to assume that your vehicle was a legit stealth performance, unlike mine.

If this makes you lose sleep, then I suppose you could have Tesla service verify, then you would know for sure (or at least for now). But yeah, before my 20221 update, as far as an owner can tell, it was a stealth perf in every sense (red underline badging in car and outside car, track mode enabled, etc.)

 

[jjrandorin]

I agree with much of everything you said, especially
- "you should have never been able to leave the lot with the car being a P, or they should have caught it much sooner (like within a few days)" ... 100%
- "still, tesla needs to do better on their auditing." ... yes, and this is the foundational point of my posting this thread, to raise awareness that Tesla has NOT historically done "well" with their auditing, and to hopefully prevent future surprises to future tesla owners (whether they be used or new)
- "WOULD HAVE screwed them over" ... indeed, representing that would have been bad, at best I would need to be upfront about the fact that it currently "thinks" it is a P ... but caution that, I didn't pay for it, so it would be within feasibility that at some point in the future Tesla may get their act together; thankfully I never did that, so I can sleep pretty ok at night


The one thing that I don't really see eye-to-eye with you is 'this has nothing to do with being a "valued customer" '. Given that, clearly, this was Tesla's screw-up, and it was long-standing one at that ... and, as is my understanding that software was the only difference, it doesn't seem like Tesla really cared as much about customer loyalty and goodwill here as they cared about hoping that maybe I got "hooked" on a feature I didn't pay for, and that once they take it away I will fork over $ for something approximating it (e.g., Boost).

Given that it wouldn't have "cost" Tesla anything to leave things alone ("misconfigured" for almost 3 years), I struggle to derive a sense of "valued customer" from the unceremonious, and uncommunicated, de-spec'ing of my vehicle.. That behavior doesn't feel like something one would do if one was keeping customer's experience as a top-of-mind concern.

Oh well, I have enjoyed, and continue to enjoy driving my M3. So at the end of the day I "got what I paid for" ... and so it is "ok" in the end. I don't have to be "valued" to derive "value" out of my purchase. I guess my enthusiasm for Tesla is a bit marginalized by this encounter, is all.

I thought that a community of Tesla enthusiasts would appreciate hearing this account, perhaps I was incorrect.


"""

I may have been a bit unclear in what I said. I said its not about being a valued customer from teslas end because they pretty much dont operate in that model. Letting you keep it would have been a great "good will" gesture, but its my belief that there is likely not even a person who approved removing it from you.

My guess is, it just showed up in a computer audit of mis configured cars, someone clicked a button without much thought of customer satisfaction and it was removed from your car. Based on the way I have seen tesla operate, its unlikely this got kicked up to someone who looked at your specific case and said "yes lets remove this from @SoundMixer "s car).

TL ; DR . computers dont value customers, and Tesla is doing everything it can to have these type of decisions made by computer (which doesnt make exceptions) than people ( who do).

This is why (for example) Pizza companies want you to order pizza's online and not call, because they can easily get you to pay for the additional sauce cup you might ask for, where a person would likely just throw it in, or there would be a "discussion" about it and why does that cost money.

Its my belief a computer removed it from you, because they dont perceive customer value that way.

 

[SoundMixer]

I may have been a bit unclear in what I said. I said its not about being a valued customer from teslas end because they pretty much dont operate in that model. Letting you keep it would have been a great "good will" gesture, but its my belief that there is likely not even a person who approved removing it from you.

My guess is, it just showed up in a computer audit of mis configured cars, someone clicked a button without much thought of customer satisfaction and it was removed from your car. Based on the way I have seen tesla operate, its unlikely this got kicked up to someone who looked at your specific case and said "yes lets remove this from @SoundMixer "s car).

TL ; DR . computers dont value customers, and Tesla is doing everything it can to have these type of decisions made by computer (which doesnt make exceptions) than people ( who do).

This is why (for example) Pizza companies want you to order pizza's online and not call, because they can easily get you to pay for the additional sauce cup you might ask for, where a person would likely just throw it in, or there would be a "discussion" about it and why does that cost money.

Its my belief a computer removed it from you, because they dont perceive customer value that way.

I believe you are correct. Thank you for taking the time to clarify your previous message. The situation is a shame, but that's life.

 

[jjrandorin]

I believe you are correct. Thank you for taking the time to clarify your previous message. The situation is a shame, but that's life.

One more thing I should clarity, at least from my position I think.

As far as sharing this story, I personally think there is value there in you sharing it. I have seen stories of FSD removed in the manner you mention (not a ton but I have seen some), but have not read a lot of stories about P/ AWD happening this way.

This could be for a few things, one of which is that the time frame that this might have happened is fairly small, relatively speaking. I havea 2018 Model 3P myself, but mine was purchased in december of 2018.

I am aware of the third quarter 2018 push, the price changes around that time (including just after quarter end 2018 tesla changing the price of the performance upgrade and bundling it in) and the fact that some people during that time frame had a chance to get a refund of 5k if they gave up the free unlimited supercharging they got for closing the deal on the performance model 3 during third quarter.

I dont think there are a lot of vehicles in your specific circumstance, but its likely "non zero" and your story shows that. I think there is value in sharing that, for sure, even if its likely that it doesnt impact a ton of people.

 

[TSteve]

Sorry to instill fear. I only meant to instill caution. Maybe you are in the clear because my de-spec'ing apparently happened in 2021. If your 2018 survived the 2021 update, then seems reasonable to assume that your vehicle was a legit stealth performance, unlike mine.

If this makes you lose sleep, then I suppose you could have Tesla service verify, then you would know for sure (or at least for now). But yeah, before my 20221 update, as far as an owner can tell, it was a stealth perf in every sense (red underline badging in car and outside car, track mode enabled, etc.)

I think I won't shake the hornets nest unless I have to! There might be some advantage to talking to a person about it as then maybe I could avoid what you went through since I'm your case it seems like it was totally automatic. I won't lose sleep over it, thanks for sharing your story!

 

[SoundMixer]

One more thing I should clarity, at least from my position I think.

As far as sharing this story, I personally think there is value there in you sharing it. I have seen stories of FSD removed in the manner you mention (not a ton but I have seen some), but have not read a lot of stories about P/ AWD happening this way.

This could be for a few things, one of which is that the time frame that this might have happened is fairly small, relatively speaking. I havea 2018 Model 3P myself, but mine was purchased in december of 2018.

I am aware of the third quarter 2018 push, the price changes around that time (including just after quarter end 2018 tesla changing the price of the performance upgrade and bundling it in) and the fact that some people during that time frame had a chance to get a refund of 5k if they gave up the free unlimited supercharging they got for closing the deal on the performance model 3 during third quarter.

I dont think there are a lot of vehicles in your specific circumstance, but its likely "non zero" and your story shows that. I think there is value in sharing that, for sure, even if its likely that it doesnt impact a ton of people.

Thanks for the validation @jjrandorin, much appreciated.

 

[Knightshade]

You have knowledge about those details that I don't possess. But I trust what you are saying.

So it may be this specific issue is restricted to certain model years (e.g., 2018-early 19). However, the general problem could still manifest, say for exxample with other software-only-enabled add-ons (e.g., FSD, EAP, or Boost) ... which are dynamic and therefore cannot be represented in a VIN encoding.

Notably, in the case of my car, it actually came with FSD as well when I took delivery, despite the fact I didn't pay for that either ... It was listed in the car software as being enabled for months after I took delivery as well

Now I don't know for sure, because I actually eventually proactively purchased this add-on (about 6 months later, when it was a more reasonable price and I was "worried" that if it was arbitrarily disabled later, it would be much more expensive to ultimately obtain).

It wouldn't surprise me if my 2021 OTA configuration "correction" would have taken the FSD away too, if I hadn't actually purchased it. This non-VIN-encoded upgrade would totally fit into the scenario of a 2nd owner getting "surprised" when something that was in the car when they purchased it, mysteriously disappeared.

So a different scenario, but the same fundamental issue (and one that is not constrained to certain model years): a used Tesla purchaser needs to know that they should NOT trust what the car says about itself at any given point in time. The only way to "be sure" is to get your hands on the documentation (e.g., original MVPA and subsequent add-on invoices). This is a point of recommended diligence that might surprise some ... but is required, given these things are not something that can be inspected outside of what the software says about itself.

FWIW, for software-purchased features the MVPA won't necessarily be certain either.

If Tesla regained ownership of the vehicle after it was originally sold they are free to remove any paid SW features when they own it again.

Most famously they did this with a car they then sent to auction. The original window sticker said FSD- but Tesla had removed that on their backend systems.

Unfortunately the car didn't talk to the backend servers till after it had been sold at auction, and the audit then removed it from the car.

The dealer who bought at auction assumed the removal was just a mistake- and sold it as having FSD to a buyer (even though it had already been removed)

An anti-Tesla website made a huge stink about it, and Tesla eventually put FSD back on the vehicle for PR reasons (even though the dealer shouldn't have sold it before resolving if it really had FSD or not).



Now, if it's on the MVPA, and the car was never sold/traded back to Tesla, that's fine. But you can't always be sure of that.

 

[SoundMixer]

FWIW, for software-purchased features the MVPA won't necessarily be certain either.

If Tesla regained ownership of the vehicle after it was originally sold they are free to remove any paid SW features when they own it again.

Most famously they did this with a car they then sent to auction. The original window sticker said FSD- but Tesla had removed that on their backend systems.

Unfortunately the car didn't talk to the backend servers till after it had been sold at auction, and the audit then removed it from the car.

The dealer who bought at auction assumed the removal was just a mistake- and sold it as having FSD to a buyer (even though it had already been removed)

An anti-Tesla website made a huge stink about it, and Tesla eventually put FSD back on the vehicle for PR reasons (even though the dealer shouldn't have sold it before resolving if it really had FSD or not).



Now, if it's on the MVPA, and the car was never sold/traded back to Tesla, that's fine. But you can't always be sure of that.

That is an interesting (and scary) story!

It just reinforces what @davewill pointed out originally in this thread: that Tesla needs to do better on the topic of software configuration audit & validation.

As connected cars, they are highly dependent upon their software, and the associated backed systems, regarding their currently-enabled capabilities. But as long as all of that remains a "black box" which consumers cannot reasonably independently verify, there will continue to be opportunities for these kinds of missteps.

It's not like you can pop the hood and verify that "yup, this one has a DOHC V8 ... you can see it right there". In the case of software-centric machines, we are forced to rely upon the software itself to tell us what it has .... and your story (and also mine) illustrate instances where the software can misrepresent the authorized intent.

 

[pipp]

Maybe folks who buy used Performance vehicles from 2018 should request to see the original invoice for the car. I’m assuming that would be accurate as far as showing what was actually purchased…

 

[Rmchrger]

Probably the "best" deal ever was back in like 2020 when you could occasionally find an inventory P3D- (but they were not orderable on the website) for only 2k more than the LR AWAWD.

This is when I lucked out at the end of 2019. My Service Adviser found a way to preorder a stealth in November. Jumped on the deal.as fast as I could. $52,990 (+$1500 for 19" wheels I added). A 2020 stealth was delivered 1 month later in December of 2019.
I traded in my 2019 mid range.
Here is a pic of the preorder buy it now link he sent me.

 

[SoundMixer]

This is when I lucked out at the end of 2019. My Service Adviser found a way to preorder a stealth in November. Jumped on the deal.as fast as I could. $52,990 (+$1500 for 19" wheels I added). A 2020 stealth was delivered 1 month later in December of 2019.
I traded in my 2019 mid range.
Here is a pic of the preorder buy it now link he sent me.
View attachment 823648

That's sweet! Tesla's willingness to do "off-menu" options if you call them (or, in your case, went through your SA) ... has always been a bit surprising to me.

But I am happy for you and your ride!

 

[Sam1]

The thing about this I find disturbing is that OP easily have sold the car to another, or traded it in to a regular dealer, fully believing that he was selling a Model 3 Performance and the new owner would have had every reason to believe it as well. It could even have gone through multiple hands. Then this update could have hit the last owner, perhaps leaving them totally without recourse. In the old days, a buyer could look at the paint or body trim, or check the VIN, or physically for whatever upgraded components were supposed to be part of a higher trim vehicle and be confident that he was getting what he paid for. Now, he can do his due diligence only to find out later that the manufacturer has virtually conspired to defaud him.

Tesla needs to do better than this.

If it wasn't on his mvpa, he would be the one in trouble, not Tesla because he knows it wasn't supposed to be on the car.

Tesla didn't conspire to defraud anyone of anything.

 

[davewill]

If it wasn't on his mvpa, he would be the one in trouble, not Tesla because he knows it wasn't supposed to be on the car.

Tesla didn't conspire to defraud anyone of anything.

i said "virtually conspired" by making every outward indication say it was a performance model when it wasn't. Why does everyone keep carping in irrelevancies instead of the actual issue here?

I swear nobody reads.

 

[Knightshade]

Tesla needs to do better on the topic of software configuration audit & validation.

The audit stuff is specifically the issue.

Tesla notoriously has poor internal IT.

Thus they might make a back end change while they "own" the car- but the car might not find out about it until someone else owns it.



The correct fix is when a car gets sold to or traded back in to Tesla, it is default when put into the system flagged NOTFORSALE and the system will not allow this vehicle to be transferred or sold in this state.

This flag can not be removed unless someone in the back end system specifically sends a "Flag for sale" command-- and if they do, it does a few things:

A) Instantly push a config update to the car and confirm the car got it- that update based on however it's configured in the back end system right then (so if someone has removed FSD for example since Tesla bought it, that gets pushed out BEFORE it can be sold)

B) If, and only if, it gets back that confirmation the config update went through- it then sets the flag to FORSALE and also LOCKS the config on the back end so it can't have stuff removed again while it's in that state.

C) Any car in the system that has an UNLOCK command sent to config also automatically gets reverted back to NOTFORSALE status.


That should make it impossible for Tesla to ever sell a car whose config changes after they sell it (other than in the case of the new owner paying to add something it didn't already have when they bought it)

 

[one2many]

Well if I had lets say a GM car and it came with a turbo charger, not
listed anywhere and two years later a group of service guys jump
out and remove my turbo, wow GM takes my turbo in my driveway. \
Same thing software or hardware its not allowed.

The next thing is Tesla sends you a bill for the Performance and FSD.
Also not on the invoice, maybe they say you should have known, pro rate the
use or you pay in full now. Hum ... not cool

 

[Knightshade]

Well if I had lets say a GM car and it came with a turbo charger, not
listed anywhere and two years later a group of service guys jump
out and remove my turbo, wow GM takes my turbo in my driveway. \
Same thing software or hardware its not allowed.

Except, it is.

If you showed up at a GM dealer to pick up your Chevette, and instead they gave you a Corvette-- and you didn't correct them.... when they later come to take it back and deliver the right car instead, that's certainly allowed.


But since we're not actually talking a physical object it's even simpler.

If your cable company was giving you HBO without you paying for it for 2 years, and then turned it off- and you claimed that was "not allowed" you'd be laughed out of the courtroom.

 

[Black306]

Probably the "best" deal ever was back in like 2020 when you could occasionally find an inventory P3D- (but they were not orderable on the website) for only 2k more than the LR AWD.

For a brief period, a P3D- was orderable on the website. When I ordered my Performance (Oct ‘19), the + parts was a separate line item; $7k option.