2023 Model Y no USS discussion, incl. Discussion of Tesla Vision Firmware

[AJ..]

For me, the problem with current non-USS / Tesla Vision cars is that the distance measurements with Tesla Vision are pretty much useless.... Not only are they inaccurate, they are not consistently too conservative or too relaxed, and there are large blind spots in front of the car. You really can't trust or use the measurements at all. I was ready to buy a new Tesla but the lack of reliable and accurate measurements for close distance measurements feels like a deal breaker... even if I managed for years driving in older cars without USS, it's unacceptable in this era and at this price point for a car not to provide accurate distance measurements for objects at close range while parking. How can a '23 Tesla have _reduced functionality_ compared to ones built a year or two ago?! Tesla should do better by its customers and realize this basic feature is a non-negotiable for many potential buyers. There will be a lot of '23 Teslas with dinged fenders from parking lots and garage mishaps, but maybe that's more money for Tesla Service Centers....

If it’s just front parking sensor/camera - why not try after market (one of those wireless front camera?) for front parking? Just curious (given the EV rebate, and somewhat of a price low).

What is more concerning is radar and USS usage in the event of highway situation (you would think radar and/or USS beeps or some driver assist stuff kicks in) that prevents say hitting someone crossing the road on turn etc with dust or some other weather condition making it non ideal scenario. Without radar and USS - I’ll be more concerned. Not ideal given Tesla’s faith in tech for safety.

 

[casey212]

Because it is $15k plus $7500 CHEAPER than my 22 MYP.

If it’s just front parking sensor/camera - why not try after market (one of those wireless front camera?) for front parking? Just curious (given the EV rebate, and somewhat of a price low).

@nate704 - Haha, good point... and yet 2022 base prices were supply chain related... I don't think a 7.5K _federal credit_ for buyers should justify _Tesla_ providing a lesser product to the consumer, especially with respect to features available in their earliest models from many years ago. And to be clear, it's not USS I'm particular about - it's the basic functionality that Tesla Vision at present doesn't come close to approximating (and seems impossible to achieve until Tesla adds more cameras to the cars).

@A.J.. In my short looking, there doesn't seem to be a viable after-market option available. If you have suggestions, I'd love to hear them! I saw some posts on after-market options but that would void Tesla warranty depending how it's connected to / interfaces with the car. There's also something that feels off about MacGyver-ing a workaround to achieve basic functionality on a brand new modern car from a brand like Tesla.

 

[stopcrazypp]

@nate704 - Haha, good point... and yet 2022 base prices were supply chain related... I don't think a 7.5K _federal credit_ for buyers should justify _Tesla_ providing a lesser product to the consumer, especially with respect to features available in their earliest models from many years ago. And to be clear, it's not USS I'm particular about - it's the basic functionality that Tesla Vision at present doesn't come close to approximating (and seems impossible to achieve until Tesla adds more cameras to the cars).

@A.J.. In my short looking, there doesn't seem to be a viable after-market option available. If you have suggestions, I'd love to hear them! I saw some posts on after-market options but that would void Tesla warranty depending how it's connected to / interfaces with the car. There's also something that feels off about MacGyver-ing a workaround to achieve basic functionality on a brand new modern car from a brand like Tesla.

Parking sensors are $200 option on a BMW, so that's probably the max they are worth, even if Tesla chose to leave them out completely and not offer a Vision Alternative. Tesla's price adjustments have been way more than $200 even ignoring inflation.

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Customize your own luxury car to fit your needs. Build and price a luxury sedan, SUV, convertible, and more with BMW's car customizer.

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[nate704]

hlamelissa, Tesla are ripping customers, they are still advertising all the parking functions if you order a car. Tesla can only keep dropping the price of cars its the only way they can sell. Prospective buyers are now wise to the false promises and Tesla continue to mislead customers. Great car but one time buyer, no trust in the brand, but on the bright side there are many new EV that are better and more advanced than Tesla.

Thank you for your input. So, who paid you to post this? Ford, GM, Hyundai/Kia?

 

[Frankb70]

If it’s just front parking sensor/camera - why not try after market (one of those wireless front camera?) for front parking? Just curious (given the EV rebate, and somewhat of a price low).

What is more concerning is radar and USS usage in the event of highway situation (you would think radar and/or USS beeps or some driver assist stuff kicks in) that prevents say hitting someone crossing the road on turn etc with dust or some other weather condition making it non ideal scenario. Without radar and USS - I’ll be more concerned. Not ideal given Tesla’s faith in tech for safety.

AJ, I have come to the conclusion Tesla don't give much credence to safety but go for saving a few pennies, sad as other EV are overtaking Tesla's lead. Tesla remains level two whilst Mercedes and Ford are at level three, wake wake Elon.

 

[Frankb70]

Parking sensors are $200 option on a BMW, so that's probably the max they are worth, even if Tesla chose to leave them out completely and not offer a Vision Alternative. Tesla's price adjustments have been way more than $200 even ignoring inflation.

Build Your Own Car: Luxury Car Customizer by BMW USA

Customize your own luxury car to fit your needs. Build and price a luxury sedan, SUV, convertible, and more with BMW's car customizer.

www.bmwusa.com

Its not the price, I think you are missing the point, we contracted and paid for the parking features which have not been delivered its....FRAUD and Tesla cannot be trusted. Lies, deceit not a world class company.

 

[Frankb70]

Thank you for your input. So, who paid you to post this? Ford, GM, Hyundai/Kia?

nate 704, I can assure you nobody has paid me to post this input, clearly its the truth, feel free to challenge any of my comments, its a rip off. I paid for accessories and functions, assure they would be delivered but not materialised. Please feel free to challenge me, would be interested in your thinking.

 

[gosub10]

I've test driven the RWD and LR (both amazingly good) - upon returning to the Tesla dealer, I had to parallel park at the side of the showroom as it was rather busy - no problem, slotted it into a spot. In front of me was a pallet with a largeish box on it, I happened to notice that the car didn't beep or pick this up at all, so I slowly edged up to it but couldn't make the car detect it - upon querying this with the dealer, they informed me that the ultrasonic sensors had been removed on all current models (the resultant googling session brought me here among other places),
I then also learnt about phantom braking (I didn't use the cruise control on the test drives, but didn't have any issues in an hour of normal driving), Im still 95% sure I'm going to order, but it feels like the 2 biggest issues with the car are down to a few hundred quid's worth of sensors (radar/ultrasonic) - why are Tesla cheaping out on inexpensive sensors? My current car has radar and the adaptive cruise control is rock solid. I worked with image systems many years ago (DTVF) and the consistency was always horrible when faced with ambient light changes. Clearly the Tesla system is light years ahead, but I don't really believe a system that's not augmented with a radar is ever going to be truly reliable (the vision system should verify its findings with a secondary sensor for true reliability)

In your experience, if you lock on to a car in front and engage adaptive cruise, has anyone had phantom braking in this scenario? (My most loved use of cruise! Would hate to lose it), or is it just the normal speed limited cruising that has the PB events?
The car is so good that I'm happy to lose the USS sensors, but it's the radar for cruise control that I feel a bit prickly about losing.

 

[jcanoe]

Once Tesla decides on a technology path no one can convince Tesla otherwise. Wait long enough and the supply chain issue, if that was ever really a thing, may be solved and USS may someday be restored. Tesla removed and disabled radar from the Tesla Model 3, Model Y vehicles because Tesla believed that vision based Autopilot could be perfected. Early indications are that a more advanced form of forward looking radar may be coming back to the 3 and Y.

Phantom braking is real. Even in clear weather, daytime it can happen. Phantom braking happens when the Autopilot computer gets confused, errs on the side of safety. I wish that the Autopilot was programmed to count to three before doing something as extreme as aggressively activating the brakes while Autopilot is engaged. I'd settle for the refrain of the robot from Lost In Space. How much better it would be if the Tesla Model Y alerted Danger!, Danger! instead of arbitrarily applying the brakes, potentially causing a rear end collision.

Even with USS I managed in just over 3 years of carefully driving my 2020 LRMY to curb what in the UK would be the left front passenger wheel, twice. Second time just today; its maddening.

Today we can enjoy driving the Tesla Model Y for the experience of mostly maintenance free electric driving with effectively unlimited range provided by the Supercharger network. Someday the other automobile manufacturers, at least the ones that survive the next 10 years, will have figured it out. Tesla will be forced to respond to customers else lose sales to those other brands.

 

[Flemingo]

nate 704, I can assure you nobody has paid me to post this input, clearly its the truth, feel free to challenge any of my comments, its a rip off. I paid for accessories and functions, assure they would be delivered but not materialised. Please feel free to challenge me, would be interested in your thinking.

I am with Frankb70. Paid for features advertised by Tesla, received nothing for my money, and then took the sucker punch of the price drop crashing its residual value. Sadly in the UK we don’t get any incentives from Tesla or the government, so have nothing to offset the totally p155ed off feeling induced by this charlatan car company. There are a few bad companies out there, but nothing compares to how badly Tesla treats its customers after they have handed over £70k. I too am a one time purchaser, and I hope that everyone I have told about my experience has avoided also being ripped off by them. I will continue to NOT RECOMMEND Tesla until they sort this mess out.

 

[Yelobird]

Phantom braking in most cases is for the most part rare if at all. This issue like many was dialed in via updates. Seems like even your test drive had similar result. The sensor removal has also been transitioned to camera and the updates seem to be eliminating that non concern. As I advise anyone seriously considering this car or Any, avoid forums if possible as few of the millions write how amazing the product is while some (and some with an agenda) will pile on a forum with doom and gloom. Often not a good review of the product.

 

[acarney]

If you don't use autopilot then phantom braking is a non-issue. So, are you happy enough with the car when you actually drive it to buy it? If yes, this is an annoying thing that will hopefully get better, but shouldn't be a deal breaker.

Parking sensors are nice, but shouldn't be relied on. Even when I had active ultra sonics (or on previous cars), I also was very aware of my surroundings. I don't think the sensors ever saved me from a ding or dent but made getting within inches of something easier (say a garage wall, etc, never a parked car though since THAT person might not be a good driver). So again, if you're confident in your driver, or lived without them before, then I wouldn't make this a deal breaker either. I agree they would be nice to have, but such is life.

If the car in it's current form is as good or better than other cars you tried, then I would say go for it. These don't take away the drivability and day to day use of the car, just some of it's advanced techie features.

I put like 90% of the buy or don't buy on a couple huge key points; battery capacity/range, performance (AWD/passing power/fun driving), safety, and charging speed.

The supercharger network used to play a HUGE part, but in the next year or two that will be less and less of a factor. Still, if the Tesla charges at up to 250kW and the other car only at 100kW... you're going to wait longer with the other guy. If the battery is only 58kWh vs the Tesla at 70-80kWh, your range will suffer for the same given size.

So take that information and step back a little and think about what you can/want to buy. Do you get park sensors but half the charging speed or 20% less range? Etc

 

[jcanoe]

I use Tesla Autopilot on the highway way more than I use Lane Assist. On a recent road trip I experienced phantom braking when driving on a curve in a construction zone, during daytime, where speed was reduced due to the construction zone. There were concrete barriers separating the travel lanes from the construction zone. A utility truck (panel truck) was parked behind the concrete barriers in an area of the construction zone. As drove around the curve the Autopilot in my 2020 LRMY was not prepared or able to handle this use case, abruptly engaged the brakes. The braking could have easily caused a rear end collision, I was lucky no one was driving directly behind my Model Y.

More recently I was driving in the express lanes (toll lanes) of I-495 in Virginia. This was at night with very little traffic around my Model Y. I was driving at 65 MPH (the posted speed limit for the Express Lanes.) There was a section of the roadway with concrete barriers and a bank of flashing lights, maybe some traffic cones as the lanes converged. Autopilot applied hard braking as I approached the merge area. In this scenario I don't believe that radar would have helped. There was visual information overload beyond what Autopilot could process. It probably was made worse by being night time and the flashing lights.

 

[kpanda17]

I've test driven the RWD and LR (both amazingly good) - upon returning to the Tesla dealer, I had to parallel park at the side of the showroom as it was rather busy - no problem, slotted it into a spot. In front of me was a pallet with a largeish box on it, I happened to notice that the car didn't beep or pick this up at all, so I slowly edged up to it but couldn't make the car detect it - upon querying this with the dealer, they informed me that the ultrasonic sensors had been removed on all current models (the resultant googling session brought me here among other places),
I then also learnt about phantom braking (I didn't use the cruise control on the test drives, but didn't have any issues in an hour of normal driving), Im still 95% sure I'm going to order, but it feels like the 2 biggest issues with the car are down to a few hundred quid's worth of sensors (radar/ultrasonic) - why are Tesla cheaping out on inexpensive sensors? My current car has radar and the adaptive cruise control is rock solid. I worked with image systems many years ago (DTVF) and the consistency was always horrible when faced with ambient light changes. Clearly the Tesla system is light years ahead, but I don't really believe a system that's not augmented with a radar is ever going to be truly reliable (the vision system should verify its findings with a secondary sensor for true reliability)

In your experience, if you lock on to a car in front and engage adaptive cruise, has anyone had phantom braking in this scenario? (My most loved use of cruise! Would hate to lose it), or is it just the normal speed limited cruising that has the PB events?
The car is so good that I'm happy to lose the USS sensors, but it's the radar for cruise control that I feel a bit prickly about losing.

Every month we get more or more OTA updates which improves AP EAP and FSD
Hang in their, my seven months of driving, maybe just one a while ago, tap phantom brake

 

[AJ..]

Phantom braking in most cases is for the most part rare if at all. This issue like many was dialed in via updates. Seems like even your test drive had similar result. The sensor removal has also been transitioned to camera and the updates seem to be eliminating that non concern. As I advise anyone seriously considering this car or Any, avoid forums if possible as few of the millions write how amazing the product is while some (and some with an agenda) will pile on a forum with doom and gloom. Often not a good review of the product.

“Phantom braking in most cases is for the most part rare if at all.”…………… you just need to experience it 1 time in 4-5 years span on a highway with cars around you —- and that will change your view on any car tech not just Tesla. I don’t think you have an idea what you are talking about frankly.

Now, autopilot or FSD is still the biggest feature I find in Tesla (and generally I love the company). But in real life, Elon is busy with messing up Twitter and getting to Mars - and Tesla cars are no more his focus (at least last 2-3 years). With other big market players catching up - unless there is 200% focus on producing best cars (and not bs about climate change or other political issues) I do think Tesla will get (not now, but at this rate may be 4-5 years down) knocked off the EV perch.

Tesla is banking on Gigacast, and 4680 or other factors to bring down the cost of EVs and have hammered Ford and others for most part (~2 years or so) but competitors will come up with something new soon (and have the focus and experience in producing quality cars). TLDR; unless Elon focuses back on Tesla cars - it will soon turn into Nokia of EV cars. I’d truly hate for him not keep inventing great car tech advances.

All this for one experience of phantom braking. I haven’t had it in last 2 years or so (~5 year ownership, may be minus couple years for Covid related less driving around) - but if it happens with your family in tow on a highway - you will NOT forget it. And your view and value of Tesla car will change.

 

[stopcrazypp]

“Phantom braking in most cases is for the most part rare if at all.”…………… you just need to experience it 1 time in 4-5 years span on a highway with cars around you —- and that will change your view on any car tech not just Tesla. I don’t think you have an idea what you are talking about frankly.

Now, autopilot or FSD is still the biggest feature I find in Tesla (and generally I love the company). But in real life, Elon is busy with messing up Twitter and getting to Mars - and Tesla cars are no more his focus (at least last 2-3 years). With other big market players catching up - unless there is 200% focus on producing best cars (and not bs about climate change or other political issues) I do think Tesla will get (not now, but at this rate may be 4-5 years down) knocked off the EV perch.

Tesla is banking on Gigacast, and 4680 or other factors to bring down the cost of EVs and have hammered Ford and others for most part (~2 years or so) but competitors will come up with something new soon (and have the focus and experience in producing quality cars). TLDR; unless Elon focuses back on Tesla cars - it will soon turn into Nokia of EV cars. I’d truly hate for him not keep inventing great car tech advances.

All this for one experience of phantom braking. I haven’t had it in last 2 years or so (~5 year ownership, may be minus couple years for Covid related less driving around) - but if it happens with your family in tow on a highway - you will NOT forget it. And your view and value of Tesla car will change.

Many people have not experienced phantom braking (of any definition). For them it's a non-issue.

Also many people define phantom braking as any sort of slowing. A lot of that slowing is quite mild and generally predictable (for example speed limit change, a break in the road, slowing for a curve etc) and easy to override with some accelerator input. It is rare that it is a hard brake that is close to a complete stop (which is likely the type you are talking about). As such, I think he has an idea what he is talking about. He's talking about as a proportion to the entire Tesla population, it's a rare issue.

Yes for people that experience a hard brake, they would probably not trust Tesla's system, but that does not appear to be the common case. For those people they are obviously going to be off put and generally will air their grievances loudly. The people who have no problems generally will not bother to post.

 

[ElectricAnt54]

Phantom braking in most cases is for the most part rare if at all. This issue like many was dialed in via updates. Seems like even your test drive had similar result. The sensor removal has also been transitioned to camera and the updates seem to be eliminating that non concern. As I advise anyone seriously considering this car or Any, avoid forums if possible as few of the millions write how amazing the product is while some (and some with an agenda) will pile on a forum with doom and gloom. Often not a good review of the product.

I use basic autopilot + autosteer every day & use it on multiple road trips for hundred miles at a time. No issues with phantom braking. Owned the car since 12/2021. One time the car slowed on freeway when I encounter construction crew that pointed work lights at oncoming traffic. The brakes were not slammed on in a dangerous manner, the car just began to slow but I would too if I were blinded.

Last month I rented a 2023 model 3, no USS. I used autopilot + autosteer all along the route from NYC to Boston. I stopped in many towns along the way for site seeing. No phantom braking. I didn’t find myself missing my car with uss either.

 

[Yelobird]

“Phantom braking in most cases is for the most part rare if at all.”…………… you just need to experience it 1 time in 4-5 years span on a highway with cars around you —- and that will change your view on any car tech not just Tesla. I don’t think you have an idea what you are talking about frankly.

Now, autopilot or FSD is still the biggest feature I find in Tesla (and generally I love the company). But in real life, Elon is busy with messing up Twitter and getting to Mars - and Tesla cars are no more his focus (at least last 2-3 years). With other big market players catching up - unless there is 200% focus on producing best cars (and not bs about climate change or other political issues) I do think Tesla will get (not now, but at this rate may be 4-5 years down) knocked off the EV perch.

Tesla is banking on Gigacast, and 4680 or other factors to bring down the cost of EVs and have hammered Ford and others for most part (~2 years or so) but competitors will come up with something new soon (and have the focus and experience in producing quality cars). TLDR; unless Elon focuses back on Tesla cars - it will soon turn into Nokia of EV cars. I’d truly hate for him not keep inventing great car tech advances.

All this for one experience of phantom braking. I haven’t had it in last 2 years or so (~5 year ownership, may be minus couple years for Covid related less driving around) - but if it happens with your family in tow on a highway - you will NOT forget it. And your view and value of Tesla car will change.

Yet I Have experienced it and said as such. I also said as You have that it has gone away with software updates. Living eternally in the past of what may have happened has little value for me. As for not know what someone is talking about your Assumed view of EM and Teslas direction are rather comical. You hopefully realize he is Not the sole person designing and building cars right? They Have brought down the cost of cars and will continue to do so which isn’t really a surprise as it’s been their master plan as published since day one.

 

[Frankb70]

I am with Frankb70. Paid for features advertised by Tesla, received nothing for my money, and then took the sucker punch of the price drop crashing its residual value. Sadly in the UK we don’t get any incentives from Tesla or the government, so have nothing to offset the totally p155ed off feeling induced by this charlatan car company. There are a few bad companies out there, but nothing compares to how badly Tesla treats its customers after they have handed over £70k. I too am a one time purchaser, and I hope that everyone I have told about my experience has avoided also being ripped off by them. I will continue to NOT RECOMMEND Tesla until they sort this mess out.

Flemingo, Thanks for your support, there are Tesla owners who have been very critical about my complaint, told if I cant park without sensors should not be driving, what's wrong with using cameras and my eyes. The price drop whilst disappointed I consider Tesla like buying shares, they can go up or down. Its a great car but miss park, park assist and summons which were key functions that I went for Tesla and not Kia or Polestar, albeit they do park very accurately.
I will give it until September of this year then I will instigate a legal claim as when I went to cancel the vehicle, I was assured in writing that the parking functions would be disabled only for a short period of time and restored by the new year 23. I have legal cover and have been advise to wait at least six month before initiating a claim, I am also in discussion with Trading Standards as they have picked up that ETA is still being advertised, although not available at point of sale.
Its a shame as I love my Y, but without accurate parking and summons to get out of tight parking spots when others parked too close, I will be a one time buyer. I was looking at getting a model 3 as a second car for the wife but as I lost faith in Tesla went for the Fiat 500 La Prima electric, great car and yes no fantom braking and has USS. Like you I am often asked by friends and family, I point out the Tesla experience and not getting functions that have been contracted and paid. good car but paid lots of money and did not get what I ordered, so two have opted for the Kia, one for the Polestar and one for Hyundai, that's a loss of £240k. Sadly dear Elon has been distracted and Tesla is now ranking in seventh place with Mercedes, Ford and Kia having shot past Tesla and Ford now with level three, no need to keep hands on the steering, using cabin camera to monitor, Tesla has one too but its got some unwanted negative publicity with privacy by sharing private footage of owners without consent.

I will keep you posted.

 

[Yelobird]

Flemingo, Thanks for your support, there are Tesla owners who have been very critical about my complaint,

Just a theory……. But based on the fact that of your 105 forum posts 105 are the Same complain and same topic. Your not satisfied, understood.