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2024 Plaid rated range displayed is 347 vs EPA 359

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Already being discussed in the delivery thread and a few others. Thought this deserved it's own topic.

2021-2023 MSPs had a rated range of 396 with a wh/mile constant of 244.6. The new EPA rating of 359 should be using a constant of 270 wh/mile but 279 is used instead making the displayed rated range at 100% 347 miles.

This is not an issue with the battery. My new MSP battery is displaying 96.9 kWh Nominal Full Pack which is normal for a brand new 99.4 kWh hour battery.

So either it's just a bug and they're using the wrong constant, or their actual EPA rated range is 347 and they're incorrectly stating the EPA rated range on their website. I'd like to think it's the former.
This is the case as well on 2024 Model Y which shows 303 miles rather than the 310 miles EPA. On multiple vehicles.

Total energy is correct though (over 79.5kWh per the energy screen).

Anyway at some point Tesla will issue an update, probably, saying it is to “more accurately display your vehicle’s range.”

We’ll see. They’ve adjusted constants after shipping in the past. Seems to take a few months for changes to make it through to customers.
 
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You need to drain the battery to 0 and back to 100% in service mode. Next time you get at low level say 10-15%, enter service mode and start a health check while plugged to level 1 home charger. Car will activate hvac to go to 0 and recharge to 100. Takes quite a few hours. Anything else doesn’t show correct degradation
The service mode test do not show correct degradation.

This has been checked numerous times.
First of all, the zero degradation limit is several kWh below the value we can se the battery delivered during the EPA tests.

Doing that test and reading the nominal full pack shows that even with 5% degradation or so, the service mode battery test says 99.X % battery health.

One issue is that the output power used during a discharge test has a big impact om the losses in the battery. Low load = small losses. The heating system etc most probably loads the battery very little during the discharge test, making the batter deliver much more energy than it would if driving even as slow as to get the EPA consumption.

For example, a Y test with the smaller LG used in EU on LR 2021(74.5kWh, usually topped ~75kWh nominal full pack) showed 97% health.
A couple of energi graf calcs put the capacity at 69.6kWh, so ~ 6.5% degradation or 93.5% health. This on a battery that did not have any degradation threshold.

The nominal full pack is the BMS estimate of the capacity, and when driving at reasonable speed (about the speed that gices the EPA range) the battery really deliver about that energy.

So we end up getting a fake number from that test.
I would guess this test is placed there and is accessible for a reason.

For me, 0% degradation is the about the energy delivered by that car in the EPA tests.
For the older Plaid, it delivered 99.3 kWh on the 21” and 99.4kWh on the 19”. The marked capacity (99.4 kWh) matches well.

Its possible that Tesla use the degradation threshold (i.e the lowest capacity still showing full range) for the warranty spec, but the car will still loose real range from the first reduction in the real capacity.
 
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Tesla should want to fix this. As it stands, my warranty of rated displayed range is based on 359 miles at 100%. Technically my brand new MSP is degraded 12 miles already even though it isn't really. When it hits 251 miles at 100%, it's eligible for a warranty replacement. They can't claim that it's really at 70% if it displays a rated range of 251 since they claim 359 is new. This bug just gets it to to a warranty replacement 12 degraded miles sooner.
 
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With the 320 mile screen shot it was configured for 21" which matches the EPA Est. With 19" wheels, it's 347.

I've never seen the nominal full capacity increase beyond what it was brand new.
I had 80.7kWh first connection on my 21 M3P (after driving 1000km home frome delivery).
It topped 81.6 kWh a few months after delivery.

My MSP “started” at 95.7 kWh (also after 1000km delivery drive home).
Topped 98.4kWh and now (one week from 1year from build date) its 97.3-97.4 kWh.

My BMS started off. It was not the real capacity that was low. I made a check of the capacity on the first long drive after mounting Scan My Tesla. First drive after the delivery drive so 1000km on ODO. Nominal full pack was still below 96kWh but the real capacity was 98.3 or so. (Made by checking SOC with SMT before and after the drive after a brief sleep.
[Delivered energy/ delta true SOC = capacity]


I use scan my tesla, logging with teslalogger.


If you use for example Tessie it might most probably not “see” any capacity above the degradation threshold, which effectively hides the first degradation (or a nominal full pack increase.

I guess that charging to 80-90% daily maybe do not let it increase the capacity as the battery looses capacity quite fast at high SOC early in the battery life. So even if reading the BMS capacity numbers it might not show an increase.

We have the LG packs (NMC) on all 3/Y LR/P here in Europe. They regularly start low on nominal full pack and tops about 2-3months or so after delivery.
So there is packs starting low and increasing later.
 
This bug just gets it to to a warranty replacement 12 degraded miles sooner.
Probably the other way around?

When the fix comes, it “restores” range.
Most people will remember the lower initial range and beliew the degradation is lower than the real one.

I guess, if the 21” setting shows the real EPA range they can use that as the correct degradation indicator (except that any use of the range for that purpose hides the first ~ 3-3.5% degradation above the threshold.)
 
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Probably the other way around?

When the fix comes, it “restores” range.
Most people will remember the lower initial range and beliew the degradation is lower than the real one.

I think most people will base the warranty on what we were sold, not what it said when it was brand new especially if it was wrong. I agree the fix will "restore" the range.
 
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I think most people will base the warranty on what we were sold, not what it said when it was brand new especially if it was wrong. I agree the fix will "restore" the range.
I assume the warranty is based on available energy. That’s what would make sense. The numbers don’t really matter since they are all the same, but with different units (assuming no bugs).
 
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I assume the warranty is based on available energy. That’s what would make sense. The numbers don’t really matter since they are all the same, but with different units (assuming no bugs).
Yes, most certainly.

The service mode battery test is a joke though. I see examples on Facebook groups all the time with very low degradation. Telling them to post a picture of the screen and the energy graph paints a completely different picture.
The nominal full pack vs the service mode test differs much. I’m reasy to call that test ”planted” for a reson.
 
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The service mode test do not show correct degradation.

This has been checked numerous times.
First of all, the zero degradation limit is several kWh below the value we can se the battery delivered during the EPA tests.

Doing that test and reading the nominal full pack shows that even with 5% degradation or so, the service mode battery test says 99.X % battery health.

One issue is that the output power used during a discharge test has a big impact om the losses in the battery. Low load = small losses. The heating system etc most probably loads the battery very little during the discharge test, making the batter deliver much more energy than it would if driving even as slow as to get the EPA consumption.

For example, a Y test with the smaller LG used in EU on LR 2021(74.5kWh, usually topped ~75kWh nominal full pack) showed 97% health.
A couple of energi graf calcs put the capacity at 69.6kWh, so ~ 6.5% degradation or 93.5% health. This on a battery that did not have any degradation threshold.

The nominal full pack is the BMS estimate of the capacity, and when driving at reasonable speed (about the speed that gices the EPA range) the battery really deliver about that energy.

So we end up getting a fake number from that test.
I would guess this test is placed there and is accessible for a reason.

For me, 0% degradation is the about the energy delivered by that car in the EPA tests.
For the older Plaid, it delivered 99.3 kWh on the 21” and 99.4kWh on the 19”. The marked capacity (99.4 kWh) matches well.

Its possible that Tesla use the degradation threshold (i.e the lowest capacity still showing full range) for the warranty spec, but the car will still loose real range from the first reduction in the real capacity.

Not saying that you’re wrong, but I read your post several times and could not understand any of your explanations. What are you talking about?

Let’s unwrap this statement 1st:
“Doing that test and reading the nominal full pack shows that even with 5% degradation or so, the service mode battery test says 99.X % battery health.”

How do you arrive at this “math”? Are you saying that if a brand new battery is X kilowatts, the test actually stops when it fills up X-K kilowatts where K is some constant and if so determines health to be 100%. And if it only gets X-K-Y, then health is 100*(X-K-Y)/(X-K) % where in reality it should be 100*(X-K-Y)/X %? If so where did you get this information?

And what energy graphs are you talking about?
 
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Not saying that you’re wrong, but I read your post several times and could not understand any of your explanations. What are you talking about?
Well, I’ll explain :)
Let’s unwrap this statement 1st:
“Doing that test and reading the nominal full pack shows that even with 5% degradation or so, the service mode battery test says 99.X % battery health.”
If we begin with the battery capacity of a new Tesla model S (I use this example as I have a lot of data) the BMS reports the new capacity to 99.4 kWh.

Full Pack When New is the ”original capacity”
IMG_7981.jpeg


Nominal full pack is the BMS estimate of the capacity.
Nominal Remaining is the BMS estimate of the energy in the pack
IMG_7350.jpeg


The EPA test protocols are accessible via dis.epa.gov.

The plaid was tested with both 19” and 21”.
This is the 19” test, it delivered 99.371 kWh.
(21” delivered 99.3kWh).

It is safe to say that a brand new Model S Palladium pack has 99.4kWh capacity.
How do you arrive at this “math”? Are you saying that if a brand new battery is X kilowatts, the test actually stops when it fills up X-K kilowatts where K is some constant and if so determines health to be 100%. And if it only gets X-K-Y, then health is 100*(X-K-Y)/(X-K) % where in reality it should be 100*(X-K-Y)/X %? If so where did you get this information?
We can see that a car with for example has 93kWh nominal full pack, out of the 99.4 kWh (93.6% battery health =6.4% degradation) but the battery test in the service menu shows a much higher health value than 93-94%.
I only know about 1 test on the new S/X and the battery capacity is not really known (due to limitations in Tessie).
But for 3/Y I know several battery tests and all show a very high battery health.
Checking these by using the energy app/graph shows a much higher degradation.
The origin capacity in the 3/Y is well known from the same sources as described for the S above.

The energy app(below) is confirmed (by several checks on BMS data via CANBUS) to use the nominal full pack as the base for the calculations of remaining range.
The BMS calculates the range for the whole battery including the buffer. But it uses the displayed SOC (which is lower than the true SOC) so the displayed calculated range on the energy app is correct.

This means that the BMS ’nominal full pack’ can be calculated by backwards calculation.

Average x estimated range x 100 / SOC% = capacity in Watt hours.
(Setting down right must be normal range).
IMG_2330.jpeg


As most people do not have a possibility to check the BMS via CANBUS the way above is the most common way to check the capacity.

Several 3/Y has performed the battery test with for example 97, 98 or 99% as the battery health test where the energy calc was also performed and the energy calc for example showed 74.5 kWh and the health test showed 98%.
98% of 78.8 kWh original capacity for the LG battery should be around 77.2kWh.
So far I have not seen any battery health tests that is even close to the degradation calculated from the BMS estimated capacity vs the original capacity.

It is possible that Tesla use the degradation threshold (where the car still shows full range, but a further reduction causes the range to drop).
As it seems, (as we do only get a health value) the zero degradation capacity according to the health test is lower than the threshold.

One problem with doing a slow discharge is that the battery will perform better (deliver more energy) because of the reduced losses.
The nominal full pack value can most often be delivered by the battery.
For me it has done that every time I tested and did not drive too fast (90kph/55mph is a fair number).

My guess* is that one part of the to good result is the slow discharge in the test that gives a too good value.

( *)I know that a slow discharge makes the battery deliver more)
 
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Had to go home last night instead of staying in Bay Area. Gave me the chance to repeat the test with the 2022 MSLR loaner. Left 5 minutes later but the temperature was the same starting out. The end of the test when I arrived at Tesla was 60F instead of 58F so still pretty close. Exactly the same winds with the same amount of range reduced via the message in the energy graph. Exact same drive time, distance, and exact same slow traffic in the same two places on 101.

It was like Groundhog day commuting.

The MSLR did 233 wh/mile vs my MSP at 255 which is roughly 9% more efficient. I only just managed to beat rated in the MSLR with a total range of 410 miles had I driven from 100% to 0%.

20240320_095228.jpg_compressed.JPEG
 
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Hi,

Waiting on my ODB port for my 21 Plaid with 37,000 miles, so I cannot use scan my tesla for now...

Was curious, did Tesla update the EPA range for all Plaids (21-24) to show less range or is it only showing on 24's.

Asking because mine shows 291-294 miles of range @80%. Would be okay with the new rating, would be low and sign of battery degradation vs old rating number (showing 310miles @80%).

Don't know when this damn ODB plug will show up...
 
Hi,

Waiting on my ODB port for my 21 Plaid with 37,000 miles, so I cannot use scan my tesla for now...

Was curious, did Tesla update the EPA range for all Plaids (21-24) to show less range or is it only showing on 24's.

Asking because mine shows 291-294 miles of range @80%. Would be okay with the new rating, would be low and sign of battery degradation vs old rating number (showing 310miles @80%).

Don't know when this damn ODB plug will show up...

Just the '24s.