Why are you comparing the current M5 with the past M3 ? Compare current to current.
- - - Updated - - -
See what BMW says here...
and here...
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Why are you comparing the current M5 with the past M3 ? Compare current to current.
- - - Updated - - -
See what BMW says here...
and here...
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
They don't overlap exactly. F10 M5 was a 2012 model year, F80 M3 was a 2015 model year. M5 will have an update for calendar year 2017. And from the Motor Trend tests, it appears the F10 is still slightly faster.
My point is .... Why does a Luxury Sedan need to be faster than a Sports car? More features perhaps but why does it need to be faster ?
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Price/value perception I think, esp. when it's sedan vs sedan. There's also the halo car argument. However, personally I don't think Tesla will follow that convention. They will just do whatever is practical. If the Model 3 can fit the same size battery/motors as the Model S, I don't think Tesla will hesitate for a second to go ahead and do that rather than try to maintain some kind exclusivity for the Model S.
definitely do not agree that Tesla would deliberately make the Model 3 a lesser car.
The Model S exists to allow the 3 to be made, not the other way around. Just like the Roadster was created to let the Model S exist.
I'm pretty sure the Model S is a better car than the Roadster in almost every way. That's why Tesla are such a different company.
I fully expect the Model 3 to be a better car than the Model S.
The only limitation will come from economics, not falsely separating ranges.
The Model S exists to allow the 3 to be made, not the other way around. Just like the Roadster was created to let the Model S exist.
I'm pretty sure the Model S is a better car than the Roadster in almost every way. That's why Tesla are such a different company.
I fully expect the Model 3 to be a better car than the Model S.
The only limitation will come from economics, not falsely separating ranges.
Ok, so lets assume that TM3 will get a range of 300 miles. Then they make a new battery for the TMS/X generation with the same cells that is used in TM3. What range will that give to the TMS? My guess is about 350++ miles....
Personally I do hope TM3 goes over and beyond 300 miles. At least as an option to have.
Correct me If I'm wrong, Tesla wanted to use the name 'E' initially. Looking at the namimg scheme of Tesla on Model S. It's same class as Mercedes S. or BMW 7 series. if e was suppose to be the same as Mercedes E class then We are looking at BMW 5 series. not 3 Series. Whilst many here are looking for a BMW 3 series rival or mercedes C series in that aspect. I do hope that actually TM3 is more direct competition to 5 series or E series.
I don't think you should put anything into any similarity between the naming scheme of Tesla and other car-makers. Personally I think that "Model S" got the name just because they did not dear to try "Model T" - so they got one ahead of the Model T
The "Model E" was originally an joke: having a lineup of:
Model S
Model E
Model X - and probably later (the Gen-III CUV?):
Model Y (yes, they have claimed the trademark "Model Y")
When Ford denied them the right to the Model E, it was Model 3 - as it is read as an E in L33T-speak. And with the emblem you see in my picture as a symbol of 3 - witch also can be seen as an E (see the TESLA logo
). So nothing to do with the S/C/E class or 3/5 series.I don't think you should put anything into any similarity between the naming scheme of Tesla and other car-makers. Personally I think that "Model S" got the name just because they did not dear to try "Model T" - so they got one ahead of the Model T
The "Model E" was originally an joke: having a lineup of:
Model S
Model E
Model X - and probably later (the Gen-III CUV?):
Model Y (yes, they have claimed the trademark "Model Y")
When Ford denied them the right to the Model E, it was Model 3 - as it is read as an E in L33T-speak. And with the emblem you see in my picture as a symbol of 3 - witch also can be seen as an E (see the TESLA logo
This and the fact that TM has stated emphatically that Model 3 will be a direct competitor to the BMW 3/4 series, Audi A3/A4 and the Mercedes C class.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
These days I'm thinking the 'Y' for 'YANKEE' is going to be the Tesla Motors pickup truck!
The Model ≡ will be multiple configurations, just as is the case with the 3-Series. So: Sedan & Crossover to start, with Wagon, Coupe, & Cabriolet following in subsequent years.
As for range... Some haven't noticed, but Elon has already upped the range for the Model ≡. He wants it to have a 200+ mile 'real world' range, which for most works out to ~240 miles EPA rated range. That falls in line with my prior prediction that the base Model ≡ would have a 60 kWh battery pack allowing for 250 miles EPA range. That will be the baseline minimum for just about any Tesla Motors product from now on, I think.
So, yes... For a given capacity, the Model ≡ will always have a greater range than a Model S. Thus, if a 90 kWh battery pack can get the Model S to 270 miles, don't be surprised if a Model ≡ with that same capacity reaches 324 miles or so as an EPA rating. But yes, the highest capacity battery packs will likely debut with Generation II vehicles, Model S and Model X, for some time. You won't have to worry about this at all.
Tesla Motors will not 'gimp' the Model ≡ to 'protect' sales of Model S. The Model S is already at around 50,000 units per year. The Model ≡ is bound for ten times that quantity.
As to the BMW lineup comparison... Before they started turbocharging everything, BMW used the exact same engines across 3-Series, 5-Series, and 7-Series. Result? The smaller, lighter 3-Series cars were quicker 0-60, 1/4 mile, through the slalom... No problem. BMW chose to limit the 3-Series to 130 MPH, and let the others go to 155 MPH. Only the 'M' varieties of the 3-Series were allowed to catch up to their bigger siblings at high speed.
That strategy has worked well for BMW for a very long time. They've only changed somewhat in recent years because of emissions and fuel economy regulations. Tesla Motors will employ strategies that work, and modify them as needed for their own product line.
The Model ≡ will be multiple configurations, just as is the case with the 3-Series. So: Sedan & Crossover to start, with Wagon, Coupe, & Cabriolet following in subsequent years.
As for range... Some haven't noticed, but Elon has already upped the range for the Model ≡. He wants it to have a 200+ mile 'real world' range, which for most works out to ~240 miles EPA rated range. That falls in line with my prior prediction that the base Model ≡ would have a 60 kWh battery pack allowing for 250 miles EPA range. That will be the baseline minimum for just about any Tesla Motors product from now on, I think.
So, yes... For a given capacity, the Model ≡ will always have a greater range than a Model S. Thus, if a 90 kWh battery pack can get the Model S to 270 miles, don't be surprised if a Model ≡ with that same capacity reaches 324 miles or so as an EPA rating. But yes, the highest capacity battery packs will likely debut with Generation II vehicles, Model S and Model X, for some time. You won't have to worry about this at all.
Tesla Motors will not 'gimp' the Model ≡ to 'protect' sales of Model S. The Model S is already at around 50,000 units per year. The Model ≡ is bound for ten times that quantity.
As to the BMW lineup comparison... Before they started turbocharging everything, BMW used the exact same engines across 3-Series, 5-Series, and 7-Series. Result? The smaller, lighter 3-Series cars were quicker 0-60, 1/4 mile, through the slalom... No problem. BMW chose to limit the 3-Series to 130 MPH, and let the others go to 155 MPH. Only the 'M' varieties of the 3-Series were allowed to catch up to their bigger siblings at high speed.
That strategy has worked well for BMW for a very long time. They've only changed somewhat in recent years because of emissions and fuel economy regulations. Tesla Motors will employ strategies that work, and modify them as needed for their own product line.
Musk said at an event in Beijing today that the Model 3 will have longer range than the Model S and the X. I've always expected it to be at least 300 miles. I hope they get it closer to 400 miles like the new roadster pack.
source: 马斯克称两年内在ä¸å›½ç”Ÿäº§Model 3|特斯拉|Model3|é‡äº§_业界_新浪科技_新浪网
source: 马斯克称两年内在ä¸å›½ç”Ÿäº§Model 3|特斯拉|Model3|é‡äº§_业界_新浪科技_新浪网
bigbear
Member
MassModel3
Member
Via Google Translate:
SAN FRANCISCO, Oct. 22 evening news, Tesla Motors (Tesla Motors) CEO Elon - Musk (Elon Musk) tonight at the School of Economics and Management at Tsinghua University organized the dialogue, said that Tesla will China produced within two years of the company's production models Model 3.
In the teacher-student interaction with Tsinghua University, the Musk asked Tesla will play what role in the electric vehicle market in China. He explained that the company will set up factories in China within the next two years, the production of the company's upcoming production electric car Model 3.
Musk did not disclose the partners, establish specific time information, plant location. Tesla, a spokesman told Sina science and technology, the preparatory work in Chinese factories are still ongoing, so the inconvenience to disclose specific information. However, the spokesman said that Tesla's China plant will use the same technology as the US factory, so the selection of partners that there would be high demand.
March this year, after the end of Musk BFA told Xinhua News Agency in an interview, had expressed the hope that the establishment of local production and design base in China. In April this year, general manager of China 朱晓彤 Tesla also told the media that the 2017 Model 3 is expected to be welcomed by the general public in China, "the time may be more suited to our car in the local production."
Use lower prices to enter the Chinese market is one of the main factors to consider Tesla mass production in China. Musk introduction, Model 3 would be half the price of Model S in Chinese mass production, it is possible to reduce import taxes and purchase cost of the vehicle to help the car market in China reduced by one third the price.
Model 3 is Tesla plans to launch mass production of electric vehicles. There are public information, Model 3 and Model S is similar appearance, the body is reduced by 20%. Earlier Musk has said the car will be priced at $ 35,000 (about 220,000 yuan), will be delivered in 2017. (Fangze)
SAN FRANCISCO, Oct. 22 evening news, Tesla Motors (Tesla Motors) CEO Elon - Musk (Elon Musk) tonight at the School of Economics and Management at Tsinghua University organized the dialogue, said that Tesla will China produced within two years of the company's production models Model 3.
In the teacher-student interaction with Tsinghua University, the Musk asked Tesla will play what role in the electric vehicle market in China. He explained that the company will set up factories in China within the next two years, the production of the company's upcoming production electric car Model 3.
Musk did not disclose the partners, establish specific time information, plant location. Tesla, a spokesman told Sina science and technology, the preparatory work in Chinese factories are still ongoing, so the inconvenience to disclose specific information. However, the spokesman said that Tesla's China plant will use the same technology as the US factory, so the selection of partners that there would be high demand.
March this year, after the end of Musk BFA told Xinhua News Agency in an interview, had expressed the hope that the establishment of local production and design base in China. In April this year, general manager of China 朱晓彤 Tesla also told the media that the 2017 Model 3 is expected to be welcomed by the general public in China, "the time may be more suited to our car in the local production."
Use lower prices to enter the Chinese market is one of the main factors to consider Tesla mass production in China. Musk introduction, Model 3 would be half the price of Model S in Chinese mass production, it is possible to reduce import taxes and purchase cost of the vehicle to help the car market in China reduced by one third the price.
Model 3 is Tesla plans to launch mass production of electric vehicles. There are public information, Model 3 and Model S is similar appearance, the body is reduced by 20%. Earlier Musk has said the car will be priced at $ 35,000 (about 220,000 yuan), will be delivered in 2017. (Fangze)
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
This temptation to pound an EV into an ICE shaped hole is misplaced. An ICE with ~400 miles of range provides a regular benefit through fewer trips to the gas station. With an EV this becomes largely irrelevant. I can count on 1 hand the number of times range >300 miles would have been useful in the last 3 years and >75k miles of driving. As L3 and L2 chargers become more ubiquitous I expect that tally to fall to ~0 within 3 years.
So the question becomes... how much is something worth that will only provide a slight benefit maybe once or twice a year? In terms of pure math you would need ~35kWh to get an extra 100 miles of range. Even optimistic projections put the cost of 35kWh >$3500. Realistically you would save maybe a few hours of charging per year.
It will be interesting to see at what point the interest in increased range begins to drop. Although human behavior is very difficult to predict; I met a P85 owner that always charged to 100% (until Tesla called and told him to stop) even though he had no intention of ever driving >20 miles from home.
Last edited:
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
The emphasis needs to placed on practicality. When I get the typical (When I can drive ~400 miles and fill-up in 5 minutes I'll consider an EV) retort... my response isn't 'EVs will get there'... it's 'Why?'; There is very very little practical benefit to either of those things. Driving ~300 miles let alone ~400 miles without stopping is torture and when I do stop it's for ~30 minutes, not 5.
200-300 miles of range appears to be the 'sweet spot'. There is rapidly diminishing benefit >300 miles and decreasing practicality <200 miles.
That psychological barrier needs to be broken down... not appeased :wink:
Mad Hungarian
Member
In warmer climates that represent most markets I would totally agree with this statement.
But in Canada, from what I've been reading around here, the winter months can kill range by up to 50% or more when you start making frequent short trips with lots of cold starts and re-heats/defrosts. Even just straight highway driving at 0F / -20C would appear to kill range by 20% - 30%. Add a heavy right foot (which is part of the fun of this car, no?) and I can easily see wanting a 300 - 400 mile "optimal" range so that I can still get 150 - 200 miles in when conditions are bad and I REALLY don't want to have to sweat making the next charger. I'm hoping there's going to be a serious big battery option for this reason.
Similar threads
