3rd Reveal

[DrivingTheFuture]

Well this turned into another boring debate on autopilot... anyways I only caught Elons response to that question at the end of the meeting and I was SO hoping he meant Model 3 reveal. Spring can't come fast enough, if my model 3 is even more nimble than the model S it truly will be a joy to drive... And fast as hell.

 

[Fred Thompson]

I think for the time being, you would be the "operator."

However, this will be the legal issue that needs to be addressed by new law. Without a legal framework, it is difficult to predict who is at fault if something goes wrong in that situation. This issue is also true for a true "self driving" car, where there may not even be a person in the car at all. Who is responsible then, if something happens? The manufacturer, or the person that "sent" or "summoned" the car?

Most states have a companion law of In Physical Control of a Vehicle While Under the Influence which usually has the same penalties of a DUI. Although, these laws may change as the result of autonomous driving. Another question of changing laws as the result of autonomous driving may be allowing a person to use an autonomous vehicle while your drivers license is suspended?

 

[cronosx]

Misstyped.

I meant to say that there are a TON of things that a human can ingratiate that a machine just can't.

Just a little point.. a machine can read lips 5 times better than a professional human lip-readers, now, are you so sure of your affermation?
Just because you never seen a system that can interpret some gesture/etc doesn't means that it really can't.

You are good at it because..? because experience tought you, not because you are brilliant, when you were first on a driver seat i'm sure you had problem detecting when some car will probably turn left or aren't going to stop at the stop sign or similar etc, but guess what? we are good at getting the subtle context and so, after some year you start getting this signals and now you are very good at it.

Guess what? if you feed tb of data to a deep learning machine, the machine will get the same "felling" that you have.
The fact that nobody has actually done it, is that for now it's irrelevant, you first need to learn "where in the hell i need to drive" before you need to learn the subtle rules of the road.

The same as lips reading.
They simply fed a lot of movies with subtitles and you are good to go, and again, with the same way they were able to "resync" the audio with the video a not so-easy thing to do.

The point is, everything we learn from experience, a machine can learn too if the machine can see what we see.
And they definitely see what we see ( and well beyound ), i would say that the car can send you a visual alert "jerk coming behind you!" ( maybe they wouldn't say it aloud.. )

Don't be too sure of what a machine can and cannot do, the question is:
it has enought computer capability to do so? and.. they will teach the car to do so? and.. when they do it? and again, it's really necessary? when we have enought data for it?
i would say that "can it" it's more or less solved or going to be solved

 

[Garlan Garner]

And another legal question, since we know someone will do it....

if you're in the vehicle and impaired, would it technically be a DUI if you never took control of the vehicle and were only a passenger to your Tesla's AI, or would states use their "operating" catch-all, where if you are in the drivers seat and the vehicle is at least running/powered on, you are considered to be Operating Under the Influence??

Its my desire that human automobile operators will be responsible if AP works or does not work.

Therefore I would hope that the rule of the road speaks of the driver being impaired with alcohol being the responsible party - AP or not. AP will not substitute for the driver in the near future.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Well this turned into another boring debate on autopilot... anyways I only caught Elons response to that question at the end of the meeting and I was SO hoping he meant Model 3 reveal. Spring can't come fast enough, if my model 3 is even more nimble than the model S it truly will be a joy to drive... And fast as hell.

Again folks. You don't have to read it.

 

[Dogwhistle]

I'd put money on the Part 3 reveal being the new Autopilot HUD/augmented reality display, which will begin shipping on the S/X right away. January sounds about right for that. Part 4 will be the pre-production reveal in late March or so.

 

[calisnow]

...AP will not substitute for the driver in the near future.

What time frame (very roughly) counts as "near future" for you?

 

[Garlan Garner]

What time frame (very roughly) counts as "near future" for you?

I don't believe that the court system or insurance companies will allow a car become the liability and not the driver - in the next 5 years. In other words for the next 5 years.....the driver will certainly be the liable party in all accidents.

 

[JeffK]

I don't believe that the court system or insurance companies will allow a car become the liability and not the driver - in the next 5 years. In other words for the next 5 years.....the driver will certainly be the liable party in all accidents.

It's already law in certain states like California, so I guess it depends where you live.

 

[Garlan Garner]

It's already law in certain states like California, so I guess it depends where you live.

How would a person know where AP is allowed as a substitute for a human or not as they are driving across the country?

Do you have any links as to a state allowing AP to substitute for a human. I interested in how they worded it.

 

[JeffK]

How would a person know where AP is allowed as a substitute for a human or not as they are driving across the country?

Do you have any links as to a state allowing AP to substitute for a human. I interested in how they worded it.

Most require a driver in the car at the moment, but as far as the car (more specifically the car manufacturer) to be liable while in self driving mode, it's already on the books.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Most require a driver in the car at the moment, but as far as the car (more specifically the car manufacturer) to be liable while in self driving mode, it's already on the books.

That doesn't seem fair at all.

Tesla isn't responsible for a driver or AP being liable for accidents. Tesla doesn't carry any insurance against my car. Again...do you have a reference I can read?

 

[JeffK]

That doesn't seem fair at all.

Tesla isn't responsible for a driver or AP being liable for accidents. Tesla doesn't carry any insurance against my car. Again...do you have a reference I can read?

It's state by state, some states limit the manufacture liability, some eliminate liability.
Most states with laws though only apply to testing as there are no self driving cars on the road for the public.

This is from Nevada:

NRS 482A.060  Testing autonomous vehicle: Requirement for insurance or bond.  Before a person or entity begins testing an autonomous vehicle on a highway within this State, the person or entity must:
1.  Submit to the Department proof of insurance or self-insurance acceptable to the Department in the amount of $5,000,000; or
2.  Make a cash deposit or post and maintain a surety bond or other acceptable form of security with the Department in the amount of $5,000,000.

In California:

As required by CVC Section 38750, DMV will adopt regulations that establish the requirements for the:

• Submission of the evidence of insurance, surety bond, or self-insurance required for manufacturers' testing of autonomous vehicles.

There's very little with regards to non-manufacturers driving autonomous vehicles.

 

[Garlan Garner]

It's state by state, some states limit the manufacture liability, some eliminate liability.
Most states with laws though only apply to testing as there are no self driving cars on the road for the public.

This is from Nevada:


In California:


There's very little with regards to non-manufacturers driving autonomous vehicles.

Thats insurance for Tesla testing a tesla on Nevada Highways - that tesla owns.

What I'm looking for is the law that states who is responsible for AP on a customers vehicle.

 

[JeffK]

Thats insurance for Tesla testing a tesla on Nevada Highways - that tesla owns.

What I'm looking for is the law that states who is responsible for AP on a customers vehicle.

There are no self-driving (AP2) cars on the road in customers' hands so there's currently no guidance on the issue.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

It's already law in certain states like California, so I guess it depends where you live.

It's VERY important to note right now that fully autonomous vehicle TESTING is allowed in many locales, however, most are limited to controlled environments, i.e. "sandbox" towns set up for the sole purpose of testing autonomous driving.

IF a company receives a special permit to test on live roadways, I have not yet seen a jurisdiction where the vehicle is allowed to operate without a human prepared to take control at any time.

This is why you see someone in the driver's seat in both AP 2.0 "Paint It Black" videos released so far.

 

[Garlan Garner]

It's VERY important to note right now that fully autonomous vehicle TESTING is allowed in many locales, however, most are limited to controlled environments, i.e. "sandbox" towns set up for the sole purpose of testing autonomous driving.

IF a company receives a special permit to test on live roadways, I have not yet seen a jurisdiction where the vehicle is allowed to operate without a human prepared to take control at any time.

This is why you see someone in the driver's seat in both AP 2.0 "Paint It Black" videos released so far.

Understood and I agree.

My question is this. Concerning MY tesla..... Is there any insurance company or municipality out there that would remove the liability of a car driving down the road from a human ( using AP or not)?

 

[JeffK]

Understood and I agree.

My question is this. Concerning MY tesla..... Is there any insurance company or municipality out there that would remove the liability of a car driving down the road from a human ( using AP or not)?

We'll have to wait and see how regulations pan out... I think the biggest motivator for a company to put out the best self driving car it can (besides saving lives) is a financial penalty when it fails. The human will still have to insure with the legal minimums for their state.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

We'll have to wait and see how regulations pan out... I think the biggest motivator for a company to put out the best self driving car it can (besides saving lives) is a financial penalty when it fails. The human will still have to insure with the legal minimums for their state.

Correct...we are in the infancy stages of understanding the scope of what needs to change in order for autonomous driving to "work".

My co-worker's wife works for a large, nationally-known insurance company, and they are still in a sort of panic trying to adapt to autonomous driving, and how they will handle it from an insurance perspective.

The biggest hurdle being faced right now is exactly your question, @Garlan Garner : "who is liable for what, and when?"


Some states have gotten ahead of the curve and are working with OEM's and major universities to research and understand autonomous driving, while others are just content to let the Feds dictate to them what will happen.

Hopefully AP 2.0 can log the necessary miles needed to get regulatory approval in the 2017-2018 window Elon is hoping for.

 

[lunitiks]

Just a little point.. a machine can read lips 5 times better than a professional human lip-readers, now, are you so sure of your affermation?
Just because you never seen a system that can interpret some gesture/etc doesn't means that it really can't.

You are good at it because..? because experience tought you, not because you are brilliant, when you were first on a driver seat i'm sure you had problem detecting when some car will probably turn left or aren't going to stop at the stop sign or similar etc, but guess what? we are good at getting the subtle context and so, after some year you start getting this signals and now you are very good at it.

Guess what? if you feed tb of data to a deep learning machine, the machine will get the same "felling" that you have.
The fact that nobody has actually done it, is that for now it's irrelevant, you first need to learn "where in the hell i need to drive" before you need to learn the subtle rules of the road.

The same as lips reading.
They simply fed a lot of movies with subtitles and you are good to go, and again, with the same way they were able to "resync" the audio with the video a not so-easy thing to do.

The point is, everything we learn from experience, a machine can learn too if the machine can see what we see.
And they definitely see what we see ( and well beyound ), i would say that the car can send you a visual alert "jerk coming behind you!" ( maybe they wouldn't say it aloud.. )

Don't be too sure of what a machine can and cannot do, the question is:
it has enought computer capability to do so? and.. they will teach the car to do so? and.. when they do it? and again, it's really necessary? when we have enought data for it?
i would say that "can it" it's more or less solved or going to be solved

This. Post of the year