500 mile range? LOL

[Mrbrock]

Yup, basic economics 101.

True, but only when viewed in a vacuum that doesn’t account for cogs. The initial cheaper phase was due to production efficiency/scale. We aren’t there yet. Suggesting they should be cheaper now because all other teslas are cheaper now than they were 4 years ago is completely burying your head in the sand and ignoring what is going on with CT production. Demand is high and supply is low which means prices will be HIGHER.

 

[gtgarner]

True, but only when viewed in a vacuum that doesn’t account for cogs. The initial cheaper phase was due to production efficiency/scale. We aren’t there yet. Suggesting they should be cheaper now because all other teslas are cheaper now than they were 4 years ago is completely burying your head in the sand and ignoring what is going on with CT production. Demand is high and supply is low which means prices will be HIGHER.

The CT price started with a High Price.

So did the Roadster 1
So did the Model S
So did the Model 3
So did the Model X (had nothing to do with supply)
So did the Model Y (had nothing to do with supply)

So will the Model .........

 

[zoomer0056]

True, but only when viewed in a vacuum that doesn’t account for cogs. The initial cheaper phase was due to production efficiency/scale. We aren’t there yet. Suggesting they should be cheaper now because all other teslas are cheaper now than they were 4 years ago is completely burying your head in the sand and ignoring what is going on with CT production. Demand is high and supply is low which means prices will be HIGHER.

A good discussion about Teslanomics here:

Cybertruck "Foundation series" is a fantastic exercise in economics! ... and PROFITable

The Cybertruck "Foundation series" is a fantastic exercise in economics! ... and very profitable for Tesla! (background; I've taught university economics for 6+ yrs) TL;DR: Tesla is figuring out the market for Cybertrucks. They are necessarily doing "price discovery" here...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[coleAK]

All this price squabbling, think about it. For all the talk on here about hate of car dealers for things like price gouging (which is really just taking advantage of high demand).

Tesla is the “dealer”, pricing the new high demand model higher is no different than what we see with many Porsches, MB e wagons, jeep wranglers, tacomas, new bronco when it came out,…

If you don’t like the price don’t buy it. When demand goes down price goes down. Heck I know a guy that bought a bronco 2 years ago for 40% over MSRP, he really wanted it, $30k more then the same model couple be bought fore today.

 

[afadeev]

Yup, basic economics 101.

Yep.
Price discriminations is an effective marketing tool. It sound a little dirty, but it's valid and effective, and is actively practiced by Tesla.

The only complaint one may have with Tesla's CT pricing is that they had misled folks when it released initial CT specs and prices, and collected deposits. Those deposits were conditional on those specs and prices, not the recently jacked up prices and handicapped range.

Which is disappointing, but not illegal.
Tesla continuing to publicize it's deposits backlog as an indication of future revenue from CT sales, however, could be bordering on materially misleading. As, again, those deposits were collected for a materially different vehicle and a materially different price point than the one that was delivered.

All this price squabbling, think about it. For all the talk on here about hate of car dealers for things like price gouging (which is really just taking advantage of high demand). Tesla is the “dealer”

Indeed.
All this meaning about how "traditional" dealers overcharge the customer and how "transparent" Tesla prices are - are pure propaganda.
Tesla regularly takes advantage of its customers to overcharge them.

A tiny percentage of the lemmings applaud and provide excuses for these moves as "innovative" and "passing the savings to the customers".
The vast majority of the owners get screwed by these "innovative discounts" by having the value of the Tesla they had bought depreciate an an accelerated rate.

a

 

[Earl]

and collected deposits. Those deposits were

I believe they collected reservations for a cost, not a deposit. Although I don't have one, usually, they have clearly stated that they are only for a spot in line and final product offering and price details would likely change. Also that a reserver has the right to a refund at any time, for any reason.

 

[Mrbrock]

Yep.
Price discriminations is an effective marketing tool. It sound a little dirty, but it's valid and effective, and is actively practiced by Tesla.

The only complaint one may have with Tesla's CT pricing is that they had misled folks when it released initial CT specs and prices, and collected deposits. Those deposits were conditional on those specs and prices, not the recently jacked up prices and handicapped range.

Which is disappointing, but not illegal.
Tesla continuing to publicize it's deposits backlog as an indication of future revenue from CT sales, however, could be bordering on materially misleading. As, again, those deposits were collected for a materially different vehicle and a materially different price point than the one that was delivered.



Indeed.
All this meaning about how "traditional" dealers overcharge the customer and how "transparent" Tesla prices are - are pure propaganda.
Tesla regularly takes advantage of its customers to overcharge them.

A tiny percentage of the lemmings applaud and provide excuses for these moves as "innovative" and "passing the savings to the customers".
The vast majority of the owners get screwed by these "innovative discounts" by having the value of the Tesla they had bought depreciate an an accelerated rate.

a

Why the thumbs down? Do you not agree that supply is low on CT right now and demand is high so Tesla can raise prices above what they advertised 4 years ago?

Do you honestly think supply is high and demand is low? My response was directly to a comment suggesting that since Model Y is the cheapest it has ever been that the CT should be as cheap or cheaper than it was priced 4 years ago. Do you honestly believe that because that is what your action indicates. Or are you just thumbs downing me because you don't like that I raised a valid counterpoint?

 

[TessP100D]

Nonsense.
They got cheaper, then more expensive, then cheaper and cheaper again, because Tesla is manipulating demand to meet sales targets.
Right now, demand for Tesla products is weak, so the price cuts are at their greatest.

That, and the price of EV batteries is on a gradual downward slope.
Logically, CT should cost less than initially advertised 4 years ago. For all of the above reasons.

Unless, of course, Musk thinks he can get away with ripping off the early CT adopters.
Which would be par for the course of Tesla. But hardly a development that any rational CT reservation holder should celebrate, or attempt to justify.

HTH,
a

He does think he can. Look at all the people going to pay 120,000

 

[gtgarner]

He does think he can. Look at all the people going to pay 120,000

No one buying a CT today is being manipulated.

They have the money - So they pay.

Such as Serena Williams and her husband. What do they care how much it costs? They are members of the "who cares how much it costs" crowd.

Tesla is currently selling to the "I don't care how much it costs" crowd. They always have always done that during rollouts/initial deliveries.

They will get down to "normal" people later (when the demand to the "I don't care how much it costs" crowd dwindles").

The question I'm curious about is - how long will it take for that crowd to dwindle this time? Roadster/Model S/Model X/Model 3/Model Y "I don't care how much it costs" took about what? 1 month? 2 months?

If a person isn't buying a CT at all - then what do they care?

 

[TessP100D]

No one buying a CT today is being manipulated.

They have the money - So they pay.

Such as Serena Williams and her husband. What do they care how much it costs? They are members of the "who cares how much it costs" crowd.

Tesla is currently selling to the "I don't care how much it costs" crowd. They always have always done that during rollouts/initial deliveries.

They will get down to "normal" people later (when the demand to the "I don't care how much it costs" crowd dwindles").

The question I'm curious about is - how long will it take for that crowd to dwindle this time? Roadster/Model S/Model X/Model 3/Model Y "I don't care how much it costs" took about what? 1 month? 2 months?

If a person isn't buying a CT at all - then what do they care?

And in 2019, when Elon said. Ok you can order yours now….. and regular folk placed their deposits and the unofficial list was started, did anyone ever think that the ultra rich would just jump the line? It’s is fair? Hell I don’t know but it’s a good question.

 

[afadeev]

That only applies to products in full-rate production. The CT has a huge backlog.

CT has zero backlog, that anyone can legitimately claim.
Tesla had collected $100 refundable deposits/reservations for a truck they failed to deliver. Any ongoing claims that those deposits represent sales or manufacturing backlog are materially misleading.

So just because the battery is cheaper now, Tesla should eat the rest of the cost of a brand new radically designed vehicle that is tough (expensive) to build?

There's no reason for Tesla to eat the costs during production ramp-up while there is huge demand.
[...]If you want a cheaper CT, you'll have to wait until those who are willing to pay more have done so.

I couldn't give two hoots about Teslas inability to architect and build cost effective production lines. That's no my (customer's) problem.
No-one asked for CT to be "expensive" to build. If it is, it's Tesla's failure.

As a customer, it makes ZERO sense for me to subsidize Tesla's manufacturing inaptitude.
I don't see how that is even a remotely legitimate excuse for price discriminations to.
Greed, on the other hand, is the explanation. Everything else is fluff.

Tesla greed is good if you are TSLA stock holder.
Tesla greed is bad for the actual vehicle buyers.

If you want a cheaper CT, you'll have to wait until those who are willing to pay more have done so.

I just don't understand why people are bothered about that.

Right.
That's called fleecing your customers, and accelerating depreciation on the vehicle sold to early buyers.
+2 additional reasons why I am less and less likely to convert by CT reservation into an actual sale.

a

 

[Earl]

Tesla greed is good if you are TSLA stock holder.
Tesla greed is bad for the actual vehicle buyers.

Tesla is good if you want to not be dependent on oil. Unless they mind their P's and Q's, they'll go the way to Faraday Future, Wheego, CommuterCars, Miles Motors, etc and we'd be stuck driving old ICE.
You may call it greed, I call it good business. If that bothers you, you're welcome to wait for Tesla or someone else to start supporting bottom-feeders.

 

[Mrbrock]

CT has zero backlog, that anyone can legitimately claim.
Tesla had collected $100 refundable deposits/reservations for a truck they failed to deliver. Any ongoing claims that those deposits represent sales or manufacturing backlog are materially misleading.




I couldn't give two hoots about Teslas inability to architect and build cost effective production lines. That's no my (customer's) problem.
No-one asked for CT to be "expensive" to build. If it is, it's Tesla's failure.

As a customer, it makes ZERO sense for me to subsidize Tesla's manufacturing inaptitude.
I don't see how that is even a remotely legitimate excuse for price discriminations to.
Greed, on the other hand, is the explanation. Everything else is fluff.

Tesla greed is good if you are TSLA stock holder.
Tesla greed is bad for the actual vehicle buyers.




Right.
That's called fleecing your customers, and accelerating depreciation on the vehicle sold to early buyers.
+2 additional reasons why I am less and less likely to convert by CT reservation into an actual sale.

a

So you are saying if everyone who has a reservation was able to place an order today that there would be zero backlog? Just because it is only a reservation doesn’t mean there is a backlog of “orders”. Id bet you $1 billion that there order more people who would fork down $100k today than Tesla has cybertrucks. That means there is a backlog.

As far as cost effective production lines, there are none that are cost effective at low production. They need to reach full speed to work. Every production line for a new item is like this.

Is it Teslas primary goal to worry about YOUR depreciation? I didn’t realize that’s why companies went into business, to maximize money for their customers.

It’s only greed if costs are the same and they are charging more. Sure they made stupid design decisions that cost more to build but they have to charge more to keep the same profit margin. That’s not greed, that’s good business practice.

 

[afadeev]

Tesla is good if you want to not be dependent on oil.

There are dozens of alternatives to Tesla if you need an EV these days. Lets please stop pretending that worshipping one OEM is somehow beneficial to anything other than that OEM's stock price.

Oil dependency may, or may not be, one's primary objective.
If it is, one needs to be fully aware that it comes at the expense of increased coal dependency. Electricity generation substitutes a large portion of oil burning for coal (in the US, even more so in Europe), which is significantly more problematic from pollution perspective.

Tesla is as good, or as bad, and what it does.
Some of it is good.
Some of it is bad.

Life is never back'n'white. At least not after kindergarten.

Unless they mind their P's and Q's, they'll go the way to Faraday Future, Wheego, CommuterCars, Miles Motors, etc and we'd be stuck driving old ICE.

Sorry, that's a false choice.
Absolutely nowhere does Tesla price discriminating on CT move the needle on its survival.

You may call it greed, I call it good business.

Sure.
Greed is good. Don't be shy - say loud and proud!

If that bothers you, you're welcome to wait for Tesla or someone else to start supporting bottom-feeders.

OK, so we, the owners, are bottom feeders to you?

Thanks. Much appreciated.

 

[Earl]

There are dozens of alternatives to Tesla if you need an EV these days.

. . . and none come close to Tesla's quality as an EV (ignoring cosmetic things like furniture, knobs, and body panels).
Also, you can be quite sure that EVs would immediately drop off the market entirely if Tesla were not parading theirs and selling them like hotcakes. See attached photo of my first EV (or at least some of its brethren).

Oil dependency may, or may not be, one's primary objective.

I've been looking to avoid having to ever sit in gas lines not knowing if I'd be able to fill the tank when I got to the front of the line since the '70's.

I also don't like that we spend our money and blood protecting the supply lines to bring oil out from places that hate us too (a good part due to the awful things that have been done there to secure oil supply).

Oil hasn't been a significant source of electricity generation in the US (except Hawaii) for many decades. Also, I can (and do) generate my own electricity.

Absolutely nowhere does Tesla price discriminating on CT move the needle on its survival.

I suppose you think that food comes from the grocery store too. Clearly, you've never been in manufacturing. I guess you're down with NYC becoming a "Service Economy" but that just moves manufacturing somewhere else.

Greed

I think we know who some of the greedy ones are.

Is it those who are actually making a difference and producing cars or those who are grousing about the prices?

I'm happy to pay market price, understanding that I may have to wait if the initial market price is too high for my budget or interest.

 

[afadeev]

There are dozens of alternatives to Tesla if you need an EV these days.

. . . and none come close to Tesla's quality as an EV (ignoring cosmetic things like furniture, knobs, and body panels).

Totally FALSE.
Go and test drive a Lucid Air, or BMW iX, or Mercedes EQS if you want to find out what quality looks and feels like.

Tesla as very mediocre on quality, lousy on service, and predatorial on pricing.
You may love them for it, but the rest of us don't warship the beast. We want Tesla to raise its game, or we'll take our business to more worthy competitors.

And THAT is what an intelligent consumer should do in a capitalist economy!

Also, you can be quite sure that EVs would immediately drop off the market entirely if Tesla were not parading theirs

Logically, this statement makes ZERO sense.
But I will give you a benefit of a doubt, and allow you to elaborate and state your case to back up this extreme claims. That is, if you have a logical argument to make. Go ahead...

I think we know who some of the greedy ones are.
[...]I'm happy to pay market price,

Then be consistent, say it with me - Greed is good.
I love Tesla's greedy discriminative pricing, and for fleecing me (and other would be buyers) out of my hard earned money.
I care about Tesla's marginal profits more than I do about my wallet, my family, or my fellow Tesla owners!

Cheers!

 

[coleAK]

Totally FALSE.
Go and test drive a Lucid Air, or BMW iX, or Mercedes EQS if you want to find out what quality looks and feels like.

Tesla as very mediocre on quality, lousy on service, and predatorial on pricing.
You may love them for it, but the rest of us don't warship the beast. We want Tesla to raise its game, or we'll take our business to more worthy competitors.

And THAT is what an intelligent consumer should do in a capitalist economy!



Logically, this statement makes ZERO sense.
But I will give you a benefit of a doubt, and allow you to elaborate and state your case to back up this extreme claims. That is, if you have a logical argument to make. Go ahead...



Then be consistent, say it with me - Greed is good.
I love Tesla's greedy discriminative pricing, and for fleecing me (and other would be buyers) out of my hard earned money.
I care about Tesla's marginal profits more than I do about my wallet, my family, or my fellow Tesla owners!

Cheers!

Good points. To add to the competition point. My buddy got a polestar 2 last summer. If I were shopping today I’d take the polestar over my LR AWD 3 all day. And I’ve said it before but if the model 3 was available when we bought our model s in 2014 no way I would have bought the S.

 

[zoomer0056]

We want Tesla to raise its game, or we'll take our business to more worthy competitors.

Why wait? Nobody else is waiting, they're already buying what they think is the best.

 

[Earl]

Lucid Air, or BMW iX, or Mercedes EQS

These are the guys who only want to make expensive cars that 90% of the population will never be able to afford. Tesla's long goal, as stated initially and has followed, is to make affordable cars that most people can afford to truly end dependence on oil for transportation.
I have zero use for them and won't invest my hard-earned money on one of them. Expensive showpieces, not transportation.
Tesla is working to meet the mass market by making desirable products (maybe not for you but I can't turn the corner without passing one), charging market price in order to recoup the investment needed to build them in mass-quantities, then lowering the prices either on the particular model or on the next model produced. This began with the Roadster, then the S & later X, then the 3 and later Y. There's no reason to believe that the CT won't follow the same pattern.

What I don't understand about:

I love Tesla's greedy discriminative pricing, and for fleecing me (and other would be buyers) out of my hard earned money.

Is why you're ok with paying huge sums of your hard earned money on the above showpieces and don't think you're being fleeced, when you don't think their's anything wrong with giving huge sums to above companies?
Is it just that you value their products more?
Is it just that they haven't said their goal is to produce cheap products?

 

[Earl]

My buddy got a polestar 2 last summer.

Have fun with that Chinese car built by slaves with no other choices in life.