500 mile range? LOL

[afadeev]

One simple answer...the Ford dealership network,

If you mean that having OEM-independent dealership service centers improves service - then yeah, I totally agree.
Tesla's own-it-all model is a HUGE experience handicap for us, the owners.

I looked at the Ford, but then the dealer wanted a markup and I never went back.

Really?
REALLY?

And you saw Tesla marking-up CT's by $40K via the "foundation" series, so now you are NEVER going back to Tesla?
Seriously?

(They are 3 miles from my house and I already have a love-hate relationship with my 2012 Ford Fusion Hybrid). I don't think I will ever get another Ford again.

You seam to have a dual-standards policy towards Tesla markups and service deficiencies vs. that of other OEMs.
I hope you realize that!

 

[Daniel in SD]

Current charging speeds work fine, CCS does not.

My benchmark is 15 minutes of charging for 2 hours of driving. You're not going to be get that driving at Interstate speeds with crap aero using 250kW chargers.
I expect the V4 superchargers will support 500kW charging because the stalls already support 250kW at half the voltage.

 

[buckets0fun]

v4 will arrive and should support these speeds though initially may not be turned on.

Thanks all those exclaimation points really allowed some understanding.

It’s not about them being installed and turned on. It’s the correct transformer being onsite. v4 stations currently being installed do not have the equipment to support throughput.

200kWh packs, like the ones that use CCS?

 

[buckets0fun]

My benchmark is 15 minutes of charging for 2 hours of driving. You're not going to be get that driving at Interstate speeds with crap aero using 250kW chargers.
I expect the V4 superchargers will support 500kW charging because the stalls already support 250kW at half the voltage.

You’ll never get 15min/2hrs in a truck, like you said… aero. Brick through the air without a trailer. Let’s be real here, if you’re road-tripping a 200kWh EV truck you’re typically towing. At 1mi:1kWh and battery technology… you’ll be years away.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Thanks all those exclaimation points really allowed some understanding.

It’s not about them being installed and turned on. It’s the correct transformer being onsite. v4 stations currently being installed do not have the equipment to support throughput.

200kWh packs, like the ones that use CCS?

I’m not sure what is your point.

I don’t make the rules. It just seems relatively clear what is required to achieve the right ratio of charging to driving. As you say, it is just physics, and what people will put up with.

I think you’ll find that Model 3 owners are happy with v3 superchargers and find them fast enough most of the time but don’t like V2. And that gets decent acceptance, but backsliding or getting slower will not improve uptake.

So that seems to be the bar. I’m not just making up arbitrary numbers.

Getting transformers and sufficient grid capacity seems relatively trivial. How are we supposed to support 5x-10x as many electric vehicles if we can’t support 500kW? I am a bit confused about that. Seems like just an arbitrary limit.

At 1mi:1kWh and battery technology… you’ll be years away.

I mean…it seems like this kind of makes the argument for high charge rates pretty clear.

 

[Daniel in SD]

You’ll never get 15min/2hrs in a truck, like you said… aero. Brick through the air without a trailer. Let’s be real here, if you’re road-tripping a 200kWh EV truck you’re typically towing. At 1mi:1kWh and battery technology… you’ll be years away.

Silverado EV adds 80kWh in 15 minutes. That's close!
Acceptable towing performance is a whole other thing. I don't tow much. My truck (Lexus GX) is for overlanding so I'm waiting for the CyberSUV. Not sure EV's are really practical for off-roading, the undercarriage of my GX is pretty thrashed and I'm not sure how a battery pack would handle that.

 

[buckets0fun]

Silverado EV adds 80kWh in 15 minutes. That's close!
Acceptable towing performance is a whole other thing. I don't tow much. My truck (Lexus GX) is for overlanding so I'm waiting for the CyberSUV. Not sure EV's are really practical for off-roading, the undercarriage of my GX is pretty thrashed and I'm not sure how a battery pack would handle that.

80 != 2hrs at Highway speeds. Not sure what math I’m missing on that.

Undercarriage of our R1S isn’t bad, but then again the pack has a massive skidplate from the factory. One of the few things they did right.

I think you’ll find that Model 3 owners are happy with v3 superchargers and find them fast enough most of the time but don’t like V2

I’m an every model of tesla owner, well aware of charge times for a small pack/small car. But hey… carry on with the pipe dreams, I’m not here to stop ya

They’ll sell all the CTs they can make for the next 3yrs, at least. YouTubers will cry about charge time for clicks, people will still buy them.

 

[Daniel in SD]

80 != 2hrs at Highway speeds. Not sure what math I’m missing on that.

I said it was close. I bet it would be there with 500kW charging (assuming wires are thick enough and there's enough battery cooling). Not talking about towing.

Looks like Rivian needs some rock sliders...

 

[buckets0fun]

Looks like Rivian needs some rock sliders...

But but but drag, range, aero, 80/15… I’m good, these things are turds in punch bowls.

 

[Earl]

eah the first thing they should fix on all these chargers is have payment tied to the vehicle, with no requirement to use a card (though obviously could still be an option if desired).

I think that card readers are only a small part of the problem with the CCS fleet.
The bigger ones are:
- need full-time service crew checking and repairing stations
- need attitude that broke charger is very bad and needs immediate (less than 24 hour response) attention.
- grant proposal writers, not complex system operators required to run the charging companies
- poor motivation (punishment) of system operators
- backend account processing
- the need for memberships, RFID cards, and apps in so many different networks.
- etc.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

If you mean that having OEM-independent dealership service centers improves service - then yeah, I totally agree.
Tesla's own-it-all model is a HUGE experience handicap for us, the owners.



Really?
REALLY?

And you saw Tesla marking-up CT's by $40K via the "foundation" series, so now you are NEVER going back to Tesla?
Seriously?



You seam to have a dual-standards policy towards Tesla markups and service deficiencies vs. that of other OEMs.
I hope you realize that!

How short are you on TSLA? I have never seen anyone on these threads that has such vitriol for a single company, I've been on here a long time and if I had the authority I would grant you the title of King of Tesla Vitriol.

I will be more blunt, FORD - Fix or Repair Daily or Found on Road Dead, will NEVER be in my driveway again. The service department has to be the grubbiest bunch of AHOLES that I have ever had to deal with. They try to take my daughter to the bank every time she brings the car in. They failed an inspection on the car because they didnt install the upgraded HID (I bought them from a Lincoln wreck, DOT approved and built by FORD), and claimed they were not DOT approved. The guy was a trying to extort her, when she declined every service they offered and then failed the car. We replaced the battery, not an inspected item for the annual Virginia State inspection and took the car to a more reputable 3rd party to have them inspect the car... passed without any change to the headlights. They wasted her time and my time and this isn't the first time, they lied about using full syntheic oil and I caught them by sending it away for oil analysis (we only change oil once a year) and found out they used organic oil but charged me for full synthetic, then they denied that they put the oil it in the car.

The current CT markup will be gone in a year, I waited for the X, which used to be $140K for the top of line product to drop below $80K and picked one up last week, with the tax incentive it cost my wife about $72.5K, that almost a 50% reduction for an amazing car. We will do the same with a CT or get a used one, I don't fall for BS markups from any company.

I honestly DGAF what any manufacturer does, and my standards are pretty high. I have voted with my dollars for over 40 years and switch brands when I grow tired of their poor product support. Here is the list of my former brands: Acura (1), Ford (1), VW (5), AUDI (1), Honda (1), Toyota (2), Dodge (1), Genesis (1) Mazda (3), maybe Tesla (4) will be next, especially when BYD comes to market, if they can beat Tesla with specs and costs, they will be a former brand in my driveway. I suspect BYD will meet specs and like everything from China it's engineered in America and copied.

And here is another former, I "seam" to have found the ignore button:

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

But hey… carry on with the pipe dreams, I’m not here to stop ya

I don’t think there is anything unreasonable I have mentioned that will not be present within three years. It’s just how things have to be.

Whether current Cybertruck owners will be able to take advantage seems less clear. Maybe we’ll know in six months.

I think that card readers are only a small part of the problem with the CCS fleet.
The bigger ones are:
- need full-time service crew checking and repairing stations
- need attitude that broke charger is very bad and needs immediate (less than 24 hour response) attention.
- grant proposal writers, not complex system operators required to run the charging companies
- poor motivation (punishment) of system operators
- backend account processing
- the need for memberships, RFID cards, and apps in so many different networks.
- etc.

Yeah lots of improvements needed. It's really bad from what I can tell (never used). Fortunately the performance of the Tesla Supercharger network sets a high bar and hopefully stays that way, and results in similar performance everywhere, eventually.

 

[ohmman]

So what is the difference if one never takes it out before I go and ask. Both seem to be a major pain to remove. One could be done by two men, one at a service center.

I was just pointing out that the weight of fuel is a variable load. The weight of batteries, regardless of their state of charge, is essentially static.

 

[Earl]

the performance of the Tesla Supercharger network sets a high bar

I see it more as a minimum performance bar.
I look at the performance of the Tesla Supercharger network as a necessary, or at least extremely valuable, level to enable widespread adoption of EVs. They showed the market that EVs are as good and useful as ICE. Many point out that the totalitarian laws, as were passed in Europe, mandating EVs were powerful at driving EV adoption. However, I think that, if Tesla hadn't shown the true feasibility of EVs through their desirable cars and viable fast charging network, the Europeans would have continued on their race to the bottom approach of ever more tiny and cramped diesel vehicles.
Remember that GM tried to stunt EV charging, first to 3 KW Level 2 and next, 50 KW Level 3 which conveniently pretty much require that all EVs have a gas engine for longer days of errands or long trips in order to be close to the viability and convenience of ICE.

 

[Earl]

Guess this truck is completely useless now... it has fuel in the bed eating payload capacity, completely a useless overweight trunkless sedan now.

View attachment 1008694

This guy is just using his truck to get the convenience of being able to fuel at home or at the workplace. I can't blame him/her.
It's too bad there isn't some other vehicle technology that might enable folks to fuel at home or at the workplace without having to give up the payload of your pickup. Wouldn't it be great if you could just plug in your vehicles and they'd fill up overnight?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I see it more as a minimum performance bar.

I agree the performance of the network could be even better. They need to get rid of all the V2 Superchargers for starters. But not at the expense of not expanding further (which I guess is what they're doing, but at some point they need to circle back and put those things out of their misery).

It's a high bar relative to what else is out there, for sure.

I never would have bought my car without a decent charging network (and it was only half decent at the time). Otherwise it would be kind of useless since I'd need yet another car.

But the way these things work is you have to keep getting better - 500kW chargers will have a role here.

Remember that GM tried to stunt EV charging, first to 3 KW Level 2 and next, 50 KW Level 3 which conveniently pretty much require that all EVs have a gas engine for longer days of errands or long trips in order to be close to the viability and convenience of ICE.

The Chevy Spark is so far the high-water mark of GM EVs (and it's an extreme high-water mark!). Maybe the Silverado will take the crown but we'll see. Will be tough.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

I was just pointing out that the weight of fuel is a variable load. The weight of batteries, regardless of their state of charge, is essentially static.

@ohmman
If I remember correctly you were original Tesla towing King. Didn't you have an X back in the day and travel all over the place with a travel trailer?

 

[Daniel in SD]

I bet the X would beat the Cybertruck in a towing race. Probably about the same range but the X would pull ahead at the charging stops.
Out of Spec should do a towing race video.

 

[Earl]

I bet the X would beat the Cybertruck in a towing race. Probably about the same range but the X would pull ahead at the charging stops.
Out of Spec should do a towing race video.

I don't know why you'd think that. The X charges slowly and counts on extreme aerodynamics to get range and mi/hr charging speeds. A trailer would totally kill both, especially if it is not highly aerodynamic.

 

[buckets0fun]

I don't know why you'd think that. The X charges slowly and counts on extreme aerodynamics to get range and mi/hr charging speeds. A trailer would totally kill both, especially if it is not highly aerodynamic.

an X towing a brick of a travel trailer gets 1:1. A Raven or LR/Plaid X charges faster than a CT.

The proposed test is likely rather close, if not the X pulling the lead at each charge stop. 100kWh vs 12X kWh, charge speeds, same trailer.