50A GFCI breaker trips for nothing

[Nikon201068]

Hi. I finally got my 50A GFCI breaker installed (swapping out the non-GFCI 50A breaker) by an electrician two days ago. It is from my main panel and run directly to the 14-50 outlet. I don't know why it keeps tripping every now and then for doing nothing ( nothing is plugged in and we are not even running thing more than usual in the house). I have the MC connected to it. I asked the electrician and he said this

 

[STS-134]

Hmm, interesting. I do have the gen 1 also but I left it at work to charge when I'm at work. I'll try gen 1 this Monday and see. Thanks

I really wonder what the manufacturing variances are in the amount of current that will trip a GFCI breaker. These GFCI breakers really weren't designed for devices that do safety checks by pushing current into the ground pin and IMHO I think the code that requires GFCI breakers was a bit premature. They should probably have made requirements for the maximum amount of current a EVSE can use for safety checks and the minimum amount of current that a GFCI breaker for EVSEs will respond to in order to make sure you don't get nuisance tripping like this.

 

[Nikon201068]

I really wonder what the manufacturing variances are in the amount of current that will trip a GFCI breaker. These GFCI breakers really weren't designed for devices that do safety checks by pushing current into the ground pin and IMHO I think the code that requires GFCI breakers was a bit premature. They should probably have made requirements for the maximum amount of current a EVSE can use for safety checks and the minimum amount of current that a GFCI breaker for EVSEs will respond to in order to make sure you don't get nuisance tripping like this.

I had the non-GFCI breaker in initially but after reading here and there, the right (legal) way to do it is using one w GFCI. So I had the electrician swapped it to GFCI (and he sort of warned me about potential tripping issue).
I told him about tripping yesterday and he kinda gave me the "I told you so".

 

[STS-134]

I had the non-GFCI breaker in initially but after reading here and there, the right (legal) way to do it is using one w GFCI. So I had the electrician swapped it to GFCI (and he sort of warned me about potential tripping issue).
I told him about tripping yesterday and he kinda gave me the "I told you so".

This is why my electrician didn't put in a GFCI breaker when he did my service upgrade and changed out all of the panels and switched my old 6-50 outlet to a 14-50. Yes, it's required by code. But it also causes a lot of nuisance issues. Just gotta be careful not to touch the prongs when you are unplugging (not that this would be pleasant even with a GFCI breaker). I use a 14-50 to 6-50 adapter on my Chargepoint Home and if I want to pull the plug out of the adapter but leave the adapter in the outlet, I need to put one hand on each device. I have caught myself wrapping my fingers around the plug to get a firmer grip before and that's an easy way to get shocked. The HPWC of course does not have a GFCI breaker either, just a standard 60A breaker.

 

[ucmndd]

He’s not wrong really, these things seem to be a big pain in the ass right now with most EVSEs. TBH I’d probably swap it back out for a regular one. The UMC has its own ground fault protection.

 

[pb2000]

Yeah, Tesla's don't play nice with GFCI breakers. The GFCI is either in the UMC or the car itself, neither of which will protect you if you decide to shove a fork into the 14-50 outlet whilst standing in a grounded bucket of salt water.

I think this is just a case of Code being written with good intentions, but not matching the realities of the real world.

If the intent here is to keep kids (and dumb adults) safe, a lockable while in use cover would probably be a better bet, although not perfect, as it would require the aforementioned dumb adults to actually put a lock on.

 

[STS-134]

Yeah, Tesla's don't play nice with GFCI breakers. The GFCI is either in the UMC or the car itself, neither of which will protect you if you decide to shove a fork into the 14-50 outlet whilst standing in a grounded bucket of salt water.

Not true. If you shove a fork into the 14-50 outlet or even onto one of the prongs of the UMC plug, the UMC won't be able to detect that. The GFCI in the UMC/vehicle can only detect if current downstream of it isn't making it back go the panel via the proper routes. If the current is taken from upstream, like on one of the plug prongs, the GFCI in the UMC or vehicle will be blind to that fact.

 

[pb2000]

Not true. If you shove a fork into the 14-50 outlet or even onto one of the prongs of the UMC plug, the UMC won't be able to detect that. The GFCI in the UMC/vehicle can only detect if current downstream of it isn't making it back go the panel via the proper routes. If the current is taken from upstream, like on one of the plug prongs, the GFCI in the UMC or vehicle will be blind to that fact.

I'm glad we're in agreement. Not got enough coffee in you yet this morning?

 

[ucmndd]

Not true. If you shove a fork into the 14-50 outlet or even onto one of the prongs of the UMC plug, the UMC won't be able to detect that. The GFCI in the UMC/vehicle can only detect if current downstream of it isn't making it back go the panel via the proper routes. If the current is taken from upstream, like on one of the plug prongs, the GFCI in the UMC or vehicle will be blind to that fact.

I’m pretty sure that’s exactly what they said.

 

[STS-134]

I'm glad we're in agreement. Not got enough coffee in you yet this morning?

I guess so, as I missed the word "neither".

 

[Nikon201068]

I guess so, as I missed the word "neither".

Thank you guys! The receptacle is placed sort of not in plain view area so it's fairly safe.
I'll see later tonight if it trips even without anything attached to the outlet.
If it doesn't, tomorrow I'll try with the UMC gen 1

 

[Nikon201068]

This is why my electrician didn't put in a GFCI breaker when he did my service upgrade and changed out all of the panels and switched my old 6-50 outlet to a 14-50. Yes, it's required by code. But it also causes a lot of nuisance issues. Just gotta be careful not to touch the prongs when you are unplugging (not that this would be pleasant even with a GFCI breaker). I use a 14-50 to 6-50 adapter on my Chargepoint Home and if I want to pull the plug out of the adapter but leave the adapter in the outlet, I need to put one hand on each device. I have caught myself wrapping my fingers around the plug to get a firmer grip before and that's an easy way to get shocked. The HPWC of course does not have a GFCI breaker either, just a standard 60A breaker.

I rarely unplug/plug my MC and when I do I often turn off the breaker first.

 

[giskard]

I’m assuming it’s a 5mA trip GFCI. Is a 30mA trip breaker an option in your location? My electrician will not install 14-50 outlets for EVSE for this reason. Hard wired doesn’t need GFCI but plug does.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

First, it's a shame you spent all that money on an outlet and box and cover and hook and GFCI and........
Why so resistant to the cheaper, easier, faster, better, cleaner, nicer, sleeker, sturdier wall charger that's actually designed exactly for this purpose?

I think TMC needs to add a Twitter-style "misleading" disclaimer to the massive 14-50 thread that dominates this site. There's almost no reason to be installing 14-50's for EV charging these days, especially outside.

Second, it's good that you spent the money on a 14-50/GFCI setup because it may have exposed some flaw in your household wiring that could be a shock hazard. You probably have a neutral circuit connected to ground somewhere that's sending current back to the main panel ground bus and tripping your GFCI.

Also, an electrician who can't spell "breaker" might not be so familiar with the topic. Take his "wisdom" with a grain of salt and find an electrician that can track down ground fault issues.

 

[ucmndd]

First, it's a shame you spent all that money on an outlet and box and cover and hook and GFCI and........
Why so resistant to the cheaper, easier, faster, better, cleaner, nicer, sleeker, sturdier wall charger that's actually designed exactly for this purpose?

I think TMC needs to add a Twitter-style "misleading" disclaimer to the massive 14-50 thread that dominates this site. There's almost no reason to be installing 14-50's for EV charging these days, especially outside.

Second, it's good that you spent the money on a 14-50/GFCI setup because it may have exposed some flaw in your household wiring that could be a shock hazard. You probably have a neutral circuit connected to ground somewhere that's sending current back to the main panel ground bus and tripping your GFCI.

Also, an electrician who can't spell "breaker" might not be so familiar with the topic. Take his "wisdom" with a grain of salt and find an electrician that can track down ground fault issues.

This post is a hot mess.

“Why did you install a 14-50 ZOMG you’re so stupid don’t you know there’s a ‘sleeker’ option we should label discussion about non-sleek options misleading”

…followed by

“Good thing you installed a 14-50 because it uncovered a far-fetched hazard I’ve just invented instead of the already discussed obvious answer”

…plus a little arrogant judgment about spelling in a text message and how that relates to competency in a trade, capped off with a misunderstanding about how GFCI breakers work in the first place. Go look at your “main panel”, you’ll find the neutral and ground bus are bonded / one and the same. A GFCI breaker is not going to trip due to a ground fault on a completely different circuit, because it has zero visibility into the current flowing through another circuit.

 

[Nikon201068]

First, it's a shame you spent all that money on an outlet and box and cover and hook and GFCI and........
Why so resistant to the cheaper, easier, faster, better, cleaner, nicer, sleeker, sturdier wall charger that's actually designed exactly for this purpose?

I think TMC needs to add a Twitter-style "misleading" disclaimer to the massive 14-50 thread that dominates this site. There's almost no reason to be installing 14-50's for EV charging these days, especially outside.

Second, it's good that you spent the money on a 14-50/GFCI setup because it may have exposed some flaw in your household wiring that could be a shock hazard. You probably have a neutral circuit connected to ground somewhere that's sending current back to the main panel ground bus and tripping your GFCI.

Also, an electrician who can't spell "breaker" might not be so familiar with the topic. Take his "wisdom" with a grain of salt and find an electrician that can track down ground fault issues.

Who said I was resistant to anything? I had 2 separate set of wirings for 2 separate non-GFCI 50A breakers. One was for the WC hardwired and one to 14-50 receptacle because I already have 2 MC's (one Gen 1 and the other Gen 2). I had switched one of the breaker to GFCI because that was generally recommended and "legal" for outdoor outlet.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

The dichotomy was supposed to be humorous. Bummer you did it the hard way, oh and good thing you did it the hard way.

The arrogance is justified. Any jackal who claims to be an electramatrician yet can't tell his ass from a live wire without licking each one of them is deserving of ridicule. Do you really think some dude who overrode spellcheck on the word "breaker" - for the hundredth time that day - knows more about breakers than the manufacturer, NEC, and Tesla combined? He clearly told the OP that all GFCI breakers "trip for no reason", which is patently false.

Millions of Americans are charging EVs at home and a substantial percentage of them are using 240V outlets to do so, dozens of whom have reported problems with GFCI breakers tripping -- it's statistically negligible.
Of those with trouble, was it because loose screws caused an over-temp trip? Or because of ground issues? Or because UL mistakenly certified a charging system that tests the ground with more current than a UL certified GFCI breaker can handle, according to internet rumors, and only internet sleuths have figured it out?

And there are many ways other circuits could cause a GFCI breaker to trip in the main panel. For example, a weak neutral-ground junction in the main panel combined with a strong ground elsewhere.

 

[brianstright@g]

I'm an electrician. Unfortunately we are governed by the National Electrical Code and local authorities. The people on these panels who develop the electrical code think by making as many circuits as possible GFI or Afci will save the world. GFI and especially Afci are very sensitive to fluctuations. The problem with most nuisance tripping is what you are plugging in, not the breaker. Of course there could be a bad breaker. Really nothing you can do, by code. In a test lab, I bet if they installed a standard non-GFI breaker the problem goes away...... An electrician most likely won't do this for you due to liability.

 

[appleguru]

Thank you much for your help but this is using with the Mobile Charger and not Wall Charger.

Sorry, replace “HPWC” with “UMC” in my post.. wrote that a bit too early in the morning

 

[ATPMSD]

What brand is the 14-50 outlet? If it is a Leviton that could be your problem, the Leviton is not up to the job. You need a high quality Bryant or Hubble outlet ($50-$80).

If you have one of these then check all the connections both for the outlet and in the breaker box to ensure they are all tight.

 

[STS-134]

What brand is the 14-50 outlet? If it is a Leviton that could be your problem, the Leviton is not up to the job. You need a high quality Bryant or Hubble outlet ($50-$80).

If you have one of these then check all the connections both for the outlet and in the breaker box to ensure they are all tight.

Leviton outlets have a lot of problems but causing GFCI breakers to trip isn't one of them.