green1
Active Member
That doesn't necessarily contradict what was said, keep in mind that wind resistance and inertia both dwarf any losses of efficiency within the motor.
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Advice/feedback for an (atypical) prospetive buyer
- Thread starter hinckley
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- Driving Dynamics Model S
mspohr
Well-Known Member
I think most of the lower range at higher speeds is due to wind resistance, not motor efficiency.
snort
Member
Strictly speaking, in North America, Level 1 is single phase (~120VAC, 12, 16, 24 amps, 1.44 to 2.88KW) and Level 2 is two phase (208 or 240VAC, 12 to 80 amps, 2.5 to 19.2KW). the power rating (KW. kilowatts. volts times amps divided by 1000) is what matters for how fast your car gets charged. Level 3 is not defined by any widely accepted standards body, but fast DC charging is becoming the de facto definition.
the most popular roadside EVSEs are 6.6KW J1772s. Tesla can use them through a simple adapter that comes with the car. there are only a few cars that can take advantage of faster AC chargers, but Tesla is one of them. because the Tesla on board charger is 9.6KW, 40 amps, it's a natural dividing line. but it has nothing to do with "Levels"
Loving this info. Snort, would a dual charger be helpful with 6.6KW J1772 charging stations or are they generally less than 40 amps?
green1
Active Member
For a 6.6kW charger, that's less than 40A so there's no need for dual chargers. It depends on your location though, around here, those J1772 charging stations are usually 12.4-16.6kW instead of 6.6kW (208v at 60-80A) and therefore the dual chargers are quite welcome.
Your best bet is to take a look at sites like plugshare.com and evtripplanner.com and plan out trips you are likely to take, there you can see what chargers are available, and how far you can go before you need one, that will help tell you what you need for your particular situation.
Have 30,000 miles on my P85D. Range issues have not impacted my travel. I do however have two sets of tires/wheels. I use 19" tires in winter and for long road trips.
Reason I use 19"s for road trips are:
- possible range improvement
- more comfortable ride for long trips (though I really don't mind the 21s as much as others)
- saves money by putting wear/miles on the 19" tires
Main reason:
- 21s can be fragile. A bad pothole at speed can take them out. With no spare tire I do not want to be trying to hunt down a 21" replacement tire. 19s are much easier to find. Now this has not happened to me on a road trip, but I prefer to be prepared.
Compared to the cost of the car an extra set of 19" wheels is not too bad.
And the fun of a P90D is hard to beat.
Reason I use 19"s for road trips are:
- possible range improvement
- more comfortable ride for long trips (though I really don't mind the 21s as much as others)
- saves money by putting wear/miles on the 19" tires
Main reason:
- 21s can be fragile. A bad pothole at speed can take them out. With no spare tire I do not want to be trying to hunt down a 21" replacement tire. 19s are much easier to find. Now this has not happened to me on a road trip, but I prefer to be prepared.
Compared to the cost of the car an extra set of 19" wheels is not too bad.
And the fun of a P90D is hard to beat.
My ski car was a 911 C4, which I kept at my ski condo, so I relate to your winter Porsche delight. The moment I bought my P85D I began to realize how crude my 911 had been. Bluntly, once I became accustomed to instant response, flat cornering, absolutely smooth power transitions in wet/snowy conditions I became completely hooked. My Porsche is now a distant memory. I had had a long litany of exotic and high performance cars including most of the famous names (never a McLaren nor a Lamborghini, but I've driven both a fair amount). I did not expect the Tesla to captivate me, but it did.
Now on to my 2 cents added to everyone else on range anxiety. Every ski area I know of has electrical outlets in parking facilities and also in and around accessible locations. Regardless of listing on Plugshare or Destination Charging you'll end out with minimal problems finding power. When the weather is cold plugging in a 110v connection (assuming you cannot find better, usually you can) allows the battery pack to maintain warmth, you to pre heat the cabin, and life is easy. Anyway, new locations with Tesla Destination Chargers show up very regularly, new Supercharger locations open, so every month life becomes easier. In retrospect I doubt that anything more than a 220V/30A plug is needed at home. For mine I actually dial down the charge rate to 5A in order to continue a trickle-charge (I have done that even with ICE cars to maintain battery health when I would not drive them for a long time).
All in all I am sure you'll not regret it. Range anxiety has a half-life of about a month IME.
Next, as for drivetrain choice. specifically, "P" or not to "P" and if "P", "L' or not to "L". Seriously performance oriented people cannot have too much power. Only too much is enough! Zero question, considering how you describe yourself I'd order P90DL.
Finally, tires. I'd ignore everyone who thinks 21" are worthwhile. First, as EV Trip Planner can show you 19" has better range than does 21", so you pay extra for poorer range. Not only are road hazards an issue, and tire wear a problem but they handle more poorly in weather. The 19" last longer, ride better, handle better in poor weather and have lots of winter tire options. 21" do look more sporty, maybe. If you were not a skier I would not express my views, but you are. As you know, the lower the profile the poorer the winter performance, all else being equal.
green1
Active Member
Ski areas around there must be much different than around here, none of the ones around here have any plugins anywhere in the parking lots. and they are also mostly located far enough away, that with the cold soak, and the winter weather, that a round trip is questionable, so even with 110v, and an average ski day of 6-8 hours, you can't count on having enough to get home. Luckily I'm not a skier, so for my purpose this wasn't much of an issue...
snort
Member
It's far from that simple. Household 2 phase is somewhere around 240V so 30amps would be 7.2KW.... But I think most commercial J1772s are on commercial 3 phase--the way they tap this to get 2 phase gets them 208 Volts. 32A would be 6.656 KW. But this precision is inappropriate: exactly what they are is all over the map. Long wires, shared loadings, all sorts of other factors cause voltage drops.
There are real electricians reading this and they should probably chime in at some point.
no. the regular single charger in all model S's is good up to 40 amps, the second charger doesn't begin to come into it until you go above that. 240V * 40A = 9.6KW.
There /are/ higher power J1772 charge stations. The Clipper Creek CS-100 can do 80amps. so can the Wattzilla. there may be others. the HPWC is electrically an J1772 although the plug is different. As far as I know, all of these can be set to whatever limit the wiring is capable of or the owner is willing to provide. 40, 64, 80 are common settings. you can use these things if you don't have dual chargers but you can't charge as fast.
Study your expected routes, using Plugshare.
there are also CHAdeMO chargers around, although they tend to be closer to the cities, because they are aimed at smaller battery EVs. Plugshare shows a number of them along 95, which may make it your preferred route. There's an adapter available from Tesla, which can potentially charge at 50KW, almost half the speed of a supercharger. you don't need dual chargers for CHAdeMO
study your expected routes using Plugshare or equivalent. Any or all of these options may be available. Of course, things are changing so fast that what the options will be a year from now is harder to predict. another year should see another 100 or so superchargers around the country and one of them may be in northern new hampshire/northwest maine.
note also that if you're parked there all weekend, topping up with a 120V12A household circuit will get you everything you need.
in my opinion, dual chargers are more useful than "P", although I don't deny the occasional entertainment of it. the 4.4 second 0 to 60 time of an 85D gets a giggle or wow from everyone I've done it to. If it had been an option, I'd have gotten 18" or even smaller rims. Smoother ride, no discernible effect on handling and only a trivial effect on mileage. Might need smaller brake discs for an 18" to fit...the brakes on this thing are fierce.
-Snortybartfast
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Disagree. Other than the occasional "launch" to impress friends I don't see much use for it plus your friends will be adequately impressed with the regular 90D. If I were in your shoes I'd load up on every single option Tesla offers (except for rear facing child seats unless needed) and you'll be extremely happy...and richer!
Jool
Member
The speed of the 90D is more than enough to impress the average person. But if you're really into performance, the P90D would be amazing to own. The P85D loaners I've used felt so much faster than my 90D, I can't imagine what a P90D with ludicrous mode feels like.
And totally agree with the others that you should stick to the 19-inch wheels. Don't really care for the size, weight, fragility, or expense of the 21-inch turbines.
And totally agree with the others that you should stick to the 19-inch wheels. Don't really care for the size, weight, fragility, or expense of the 21-inch turbines.
Guys, I love the knowledge and enthusiasm of this thread. Thanks so much.
I admit that my heart wants the "P", but $20k is a big number (and $30k for the L is, well, ludicrous). I passed on ordering Porsche's X51 power package which costs $13k and provides about 7.5% more hp. My guess is I'll end up passing on the P as well, but that could change at the last moment.
I really do like the look of the 21" wheels but know in my heart that they're the wrong choice, especially around horrid northeast roads. As I mentioned in a previous post, I may buy the car with the standard 19s and immediately swap them for aftermarket 20s as a compromise. I'm actually hoping that Tesla offers the MX's 20" wheels as an option on the MS before I order.
Let me throw out yet another question . . . As I've said, I consider myself to be a driving enthusiast and have no interest in, and would never use, Autopilot (I don't even use cruise control, never mind the extra cost intelligent cruise controls). To put it in further perspective, the MS will be my first car in more than 30 years without a manual transmission. So I was not going to order Autopilot. I know it can be activated later for me or for the next owner, but do you think it's stupid not to order the feature?
Thanks again guys. I really appreciate all the feedback.
I admit that my heart wants the "P", but $20k is a big number (and $30k for the L is, well, ludicrous). I passed on ordering Porsche's X51 power package which costs $13k and provides about 7.5% more hp. My guess is I'll end up passing on the P as well, but that could change at the last moment.
I really do like the look of the 21" wheels but know in my heart that they're the wrong choice, especially around horrid northeast roads. As I mentioned in a previous post, I may buy the car with the standard 19s and immediately swap them for aftermarket 20s as a compromise. I'm actually hoping that Tesla offers the MX's 20" wheels as an option on the MS before I order.
Let me throw out yet another question . . . As I've said, I consider myself to be a driving enthusiast and have no interest in, and would never use, Autopilot (I don't even use cruise control, never mind the extra cost intelligent cruise controls). To put it in further perspective, the MS will be my first car in more than 30 years without a manual transmission. So I was not going to order Autopilot. I know it can be activated later for me or for the next owner, but do you think it's stupid not to order the feature?
Thanks again guys. I really appreciate all the feedback.
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Super_Popular
Well-Known Member
Wait as long as you can, there might be some exciting changes to the Model S at the end of the year.
green1
Active Member
I really enjoy the autopilot, it's great for stop and go rush hour traffic, it's also good for long straight boring highway. But it's up to you if you will use it or not.
As for "the next buyer", never buy anything "for the next buyer" you'll never make back on resale what you pay in the first place, doesn't matter what option, the answer is the same, the initial purchase will always be higher than the amount you'll make back on it. Buy the car YOU want, not what you think someone else might want later.
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And best advice is to completely ignore this. Nobody knows this, and it is pure speculation, if you ever wait for anything with Tesla, there's no guarantee you'll get anything extra, but you are guaranteed to miss out on what's already there.
I also think you should get AP even though you don't think you'll use it. Agree with your decision. Now for colors, which exterior and interior colors do you like?
The more I'm on this site, the more I want the car NOW. But I don't really need the car until November (in time for next winter's snow), so I'll wait till August or September to order.
I think that's good advice. I know I won't use Autopilot.
Unless something new comes out, I'm pretty sure it'll be red exterior with black next-gen seats, black headliner and carbon trim. Seems like the sportiest combo to my eye.
