Almost 15% range loss Model 3 Awd

[TeeEmCee]

For me the story is a bit different, right now at 100% charge I get about 267 miles.

Do you know what your current rated range at 100% translates into in real life miles?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Do you know what your current rated range at 100% translates into in real life miles?

This isn't really a question with a useful answer, since the answer can be so varied. The 267 rated miles at 100% is really all we need (given the other data he's given - namely that he's done 100%->1% discharges and he still gets the same 100%). That's the available energy estimate which is what matters.

All else being equal, he'll be able to get 15% fewer real-life miles than a new vehicle. Meaning exactly the same drive (with consistent Wh/mi throughout the drive, of course, otherwise the % difference in real-life miles would be different, if there were a big hill at the end or something).

 

[TeeEmCee]

This isn't really a meaningful question, since the answer can be so varied. The 267 miles is really all we need (given the other data he's given - namely that he's done 100%->1% discharges and he still gets the same 100%). That's the available energy estimate which is what matters.

All else being equal, he'll be able to get 15% fewer real life miles than a new vehicle. Meaning exactly the same drive (with consistent Wh/mi throughout the drive, of course, otherwise the % difference in real-life miles would be different if there were a big hill at the end or something).

Right, thank you! Already got that.
Should the OP feel like answering my question, please feel free to ignore it.

 

[TeeEmCee]

This isn't really a question with a useful answer, since the answer can be so varied. The 267 rated miles at 100% is really all we need (given the other data he's given - namely that he's done 100%->1% discharges and he still gets the same 100%). That's the available energy estimate which is what matters.

All else being equal, he'll be able to get 15% fewer real-life miles than a new vehicle. Meaning exactly the same drive (with consistent Wh/mi throughout the drive, of course, otherwise the % difference in real-life miles would be different, if there were a big hill at the end or something).

Reason for my question:

Such a rapid drop in rated range is very unlikely to be plain degradation, rather it's more likely an issue with the pack.
There are reports here (saw one thread recently) of a condition where the rated range drops precipitously as the battery reaches a low state of charge. Bjorn experienced the same behavior during his first EQC test and it turned out that a battery module was defective and had to be replaced. In the OP's case, there's already a steep initial drop, but that may be masking a larger drop that may become apparent only at a lower state of charge.

As everyone else here, I'm curious about such failure patterns and am interested in learning about them.

 

[Max3]

Sounds like this was a continuous 100% to 1% discharge (no park)

Story checks out:

267rmi * 230Wh/rmi * 0.99 = 60.8kWh

Note the use of the 230Wh/rmi constant (it is arguably as high as 234Wh/rmi but I've never seen that) - shows that the 245Wh/rmi constant that some people insist on is only for the charging event (as detailed above).

A new battery should give you 310rmi*230Wh/rmi = 71.3kWh. (With 234Wh/rmi it would be 72.5kWh)

(This number doesn't have anything to do with the actual battery capacity of course - it is a scaled (by about 0.955) version of the capacity - but it does show you the relative degradation - which of course is 15%.)

Keep hoping for that "cannot charge to 100%" message! What sort of driving do you do where you have to routinely do this sort of length drive?

Yes it was continuous!

Ofc I don't drive that long every week, but at least once a month I drive out to my place on the country side 110 miles one way and no supercharges, this is mainly highway driving above the speed limit. And the thing is that I can do it with the range that I have now but then I will have to charge to 100% which is not good for the battery, although since my battery is already this degraded it might not have an effect but still. And then I sometimes go for long road trips where the extra range is nice, the point is that I really want the extra range that I paid extra for.

 

[Max3]

I interpret this a meaning that if you get in the car with 100% battery and drive until it reports 1% and look at the watt hours consumed for that trip that the number is 61 kWh. This implies usable capacity of 61/(1 - .01) = 61.6 kWh. I assume the S LR has a 100 kW hr battery which has about 98 kWh capacity when new in which case your battery has degraded to 62% of its capacity and that is certainly not normal for 6 months ownership.

Now if you are looking at the "Since Last Charge" number this usage has occurred over several days and if you have preconditioned the car etc phantom or other drains may have lowered the SoC but these are not counted by the Trip OD's kWh calculations and it is possible to see a 99% SoC reduction with only 61 kWh having gone into consumption while the car is moving. For this reason battery capacity is calculated from charging data. If you charge from 1% to 100% (please don't do this often) and the BMS reports that only 61 kWh was added to the battery that really means that the capacity of the battery is 61.6 kWh and that really is an indicator of a serious battery problem.

So collect charging data using TeslaFi or a similar app. If you consistently find kWh_added/(End_SoC/100 - Start_SoC/100) is around 61 kW then you have a solid argument that there is a problem and a tech who understands will clearly see it.




Collect some battery capacity data as described above and show it to him. A sample plot would look like this (just look at the little circles for now).

View attachment 460997



The caution that goes with this is that the accuracy of the estimated battery capacity as estimated from a charge is directly proportional to the percent SoC difference between start and end. Thus an estimate for a charge for 10% to 60% is 5 times more accurate that one from a 30% to 40% charge. Try, therefore, to charge at least 50%. In this sample plot the accuracy of each estimate is shown as the vertical bar under the circle which represents the estimate. In drawing the trend line those accuracies are considered. Even with the wild points and none of the fancy math it's clear that the capacity of this battery is about 98 kWh. If all the points were distributed about the 60 kWh line that would be a very strong argument that the battery capacity is about 60 kWh and that either the battery is flawed or the BMS is not reading its status properly. Keep in mind that this data is taken from the car's BMS through the API. It is what the car itself has reported.

Now I recognize that all this is easy for me to say because of 50 years experience doing this kind of data analysis and am aware that someone with no technical background would probably not be able to advance this argument as assertively as I believe I could (but not in Swedish). My suggestion would be to seek the assistance of a friend, colleague or family member who could do the analysis and/or make the argument for you.

Thanks for the information although I do not have a Model S LR , I have a model 3 LR, so not as much degradation as you states. I might try to collect some data if I have time.

 

[Max3]

Do you know what your current rated range at 100% translates into in real life miles?

That varies depending on my driving, high speed highway is around 170 miles.

 

[Max3]

Reason for my question:

Such a rapid drop in rated range is very unlikely to be plain degradation, rather it's more likely an issue with the pack.
There are reports here (saw one thread recently) of a condition where the rated range drops precipitously as the battery reaches a low state of charge. Bjorn experienced the same behavior during his first EQC test and it turned out that a battery module was defective and had to be replaced. In the OP's case, there's already a steep initial drop, but that may be masking a larger drop that may become apparent only at a lower state of charge.

As everyone else here, I'm curious about such failure patterns and am interested in learning about them.

I follow Bjorn and saw his videos about EQC, although expect for the decrease in capacity my battery behaves normally. No sudden range drops at lower states of charge and I haven't had a sudden shutdown when driving at low SoC.

 

[Wennfred]

Kim from “Like Tesla” had this same problem, she took it into the SC after talking to some engineering types. She was also getting the run around at first but they did a re-calibration of the battery and this corrected amount of charge. Don’t recall which one of her YouTube videos it was but you can search it.

Fred

 

[Wennfred]

Start the video at the 1:25 minute mark, note that at the 3:06 minute mark is where Tesla needed to get approval and did the hard reset to get the numbers back:

 

[Max3]

Start the video at the 1:25 minute mark, note that at the 3:06 minute mark is where Tesla needed to get approval and did the hard reset to get the numbers back:

Yes have seen that video several times and it seemed like a great solution to try out. However as previously stated my SC does not think there's is anything wrong with my battery, so I think it will be had to make them do the reset.

 

[hcdavis3]

Have them try a CAC reset (if they are willing) to see if it is just a calibration issue.
Battery Degradation "fix"? : teslamotors

Thanks D.

 

[Max3]

After moths of searching trough manuals and teslas website I finally just found what I needed on their support page:

"Why is my displayed estimated range decreasing faster than miles (kilometers for EMEA) driven?
The range displayed is not adapted based on driving pattern or other factors that impact range. When fully charged, the driving range displayed is based on regulating agency certification (Environmental Protection Agency - EPA). To view estimated range based on average consumption, open the Energy app."

Note that this is not the problem that I am experiencing, although Tesla clearly states that it's not based on driving style which the SC keeps telling me. I will bring this up next time at SC.

 

[TeeEmCee]

That varies depending on my driving, high speed highway is around 170 miles.

Thank you!

That’s pretty far from the rated miles. Is that typical for the AWD model or do you have mostly high-speed or very congested traffic?

 

[T3slaOwner]

Sounds like this was a continuous 100% to 1% discharge (no park)

Story checks out:

267rmi * 230Wh/rmi * 0.99 = 60.8kWh

Note the use of the 230Wh/rmi constant (it is arguably as high as 234Wh/rmi but I've never seen that) - shows that the 245Wh/rmi constant that some people insist on is only for the charging event (as detailed above).

A new battery should give you 310rmi*230Wh/rmi = 71.3kWh. (With 234Wh/rmi it would be 72.5kWh)

(This number doesn't have anything to do with the actual battery capacity of course - it is a scaled (by about 0.955) version of the capacity - but it does show you the relative degradation - which of course is 15%.)

Keep hoping for that "cannot charge to 100%" message! What sort of driving do you do where you have to routinely do this sort of length drive?

What is "rmi"? At first I thought it was a typo, but I see it repeated, so it must be intentional. What does the 'r' stand for?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

What is "rmi"? At first I thought it was a typo, but I see it repeated, so it must be intentional. What does the 'r' stand for?

Rated miles. It's just what I use to avoid confusion with quotes of "Wh/mi" (which is actual efficiency per distance traveled).

Rated miles are essentially a measure of energy - there is a constant relationship between Wh and each rated mile (for a given vehicle type & trim).

 

[T3slaOwner]

Rated miles. It's just what I use to avoid confusion with quotes of "Wh/mi" (which is actual efficiency).

Rated miles are essentially a measure of energy - there is a constant relationship between Wh and each rated mile (for a given vehicle type & trim).

Wh are measured, miles are measured. Where does the "rating" come in? I don't understand how you are using this term. The rated mileage is just a number you use for approximating based on a specific course. Are you just trying to compare your mileage to the "rated" mileage?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Wh are measured, miles are measured. Where does the "rating" come in? I don't understand how you are using this term. The rated mileage is just a number you use for approximating based on a specific course.

A "rated mile" (as I am referring to it) is a single "mile" on the battery gauge (not the range estimator). For a new AWD, there will be about 310 rated miles on the battery gauge.

That's the reason for the distinction - rmi have nothing to do with distance (except the distance traveled in the EPA test - they are a scaled version of that mileage result - but in the end they end up being a measure of energy, not distance, since it takes a certain amount of energy to "travel" the controlled, carefully defined EPA cycle).

 

[299792458]

I have issues too, recently my 100% charge has been around 275 miles (P3D delivered in Aug '18). I now have about 19,500 miles on the odometer, and always charge to 80-90%.

I did a cycle going down to 18% and up to 100% (but charging never stopped, but slowed to a trickle in the SC). I couldn't wait for it to stop completely so I pulled it and saw no increase on rated range in miles.

A week or so later I went from about 50% to 100% on the SC, this time waiting until charging completely stopped. Full state of charge showed 281 miles range (added about 6 miles).

I feel like if I did this again I may gain a few more back, but I don't want to charge to 100% because it's hard to drive the miles off right away.

Just for reference:

1. My lifetime efficiency is 300 Wh/mi, with my summertime efficiency (since June) being 272 Wh/mi. Definitely see the differences between winter and summer consumption.

2. My usage yesterday, which has been pretty typical lately, shows these kinds of stats on the display: 40% charge used (90% down to 50%), 23 kWh used, 266 Wh/mi, 86.7 miles driven.

I don't think the stats the car is showing agree with each other.

 

[TimothyHW3]

Not sure why there insists to be given false and misleading and fairly complicated information - the so called constant, which I explained in my previous posts- is the EPA rating for the car and you can easily see it under Energy in your car - it is the gray line. You have to drive close to it in terms of consumption to see the number displayed. The number is around 153-154 Wh/km in km and around 245-248Wh/mile.
It is calculated based on the bases battery capacity which is 77kWh including 3.5kWh buffer. 77/3.10 equals the EPA consumption.
If your battery is degradated, for instance 75.5kWh(including buffer) you will only see 75.5/245 or roughly 301 miles at 100%.

Please also note that the buffer is also included in this calculation even though it is actually below 0%. So basically you have 0-100% of around 72kWh available at 75.5 full nominal. So you actually do have 300miles but only if you drive at that rated consumption and go below 0% and use the buffer.

Hope this is the last time I have to explain this...

As for your issue, at these miles you should be seeing anywhere between 71-72.5kWh available after degradation (71kWh is the most I have seen after 5-10k miles).
You say you do runs from 100-0% which is very bad for your battery. You also say you see miles loss at 90% every week which means that you also charge to 90% every week which also might be bad, depending on how hot it was and how long the car stayed at 90%.

Another thing is the way you measure 0-100%. The 61kWh, is this what the car is reporting as used? You have to understand that there is heat loss. At your avg of around 290, without knowing too much, I would guesstimate that there was about 15% heat loss. If you avg more on the time even more(15% based on 290 and 245 constant EPA which sees almost no loss). So that means you had around 69-70kWh taken out from the battery pack, with 15% loss. But this only if you did a highway run with almost zero Regen.

So you see, there are a lot of factors, we don't know. I would suggest to talk to Tesla and ask them to do the BMS CAC reset, as @diamond.g suggested, never let it down under 20% in the next couple of months and see how that goes. Also, try charging at the slowest available charging speed with the UMC cable, something lower than 3-4kW might help rebalance the battery afterwards.

But I think you already have a bit of degredation due to the way you handled the car, but probably not more than 3-5%