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Aluminum or Steel body for Model 3

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I hope that but is very doubtful. I've read an article yesterday about a 40% price rising from Saudi Arabia in the next months. Time will tell.

Edit: Agence France-Presse on Twitter:
I'd rather oil prices go up so that BEVs look better from a fuel cost perspective. But my guess is that oil prices will stay low for at least the next year because the relatively slow world economy won't increase demand much relative to the current oversupply of oil. Barring some sort of unexpected event that causes a significant reduction in supply, that is.

Here in the USA, with low gas taxes, the cost of fuel for a decent mileage ICE car is at or below parity with electricity for a BEV in places with relatively high electric rates. Huge gas guzzling trucks and SUVs are selling as fast as auto companies can make them because buyers seem to think that gas prices will stay low for a long time (and they may be right). I view this as a negative development.

[The average price in my state is $1.86/gallon = $0.49/liter = €0.45/liter]
 
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I hope that but is very doubtful. I've read an article yesterday about a 40% price rising from Saudi Arabia in the next months. Time will tell.

Edit: Agence France-Presse on Twitter:

First off the energy to refine aluminum is not derived from fossil fuels at all. Most aluminum plants are located as near as possible to large hydro-electric dams to get electricity as cheap as possible. They separate the ore with electricity. So much that leukemia is a professional malady of people who smelt aluminum. Aluminum recycling does use natural gas to run the smelters, so they are a bit tied to the price of fossil fuels, though not oil.

Secondly this is way off topic, but is something I heard several years ago that I thought might be out there, but filed away as a possibility. It's the notion that the US, Saudi Arabia, and some other allies conspire to manipulate the price of oil as to hurt potential enemies as much as possible. They guy proposing this was a reporter who began to piece together a pattern after he interviewed the last Soviet foreign minister who said a major contributing factor to the fall of the Soviet Union was the low price of oil in the 1980s. He may or may not have been exaggerating, but the USSR was highly dependent on foreign sales of oil in the 1980s and the low price hurt them very badly.

The guy went on to say the price went up and stayed up even though US production had ramped up to huge numbers was to hurt the Chinese who have to import almost all their oil. It was true at the time that oil was not behaving by standard supply and demand rules, supply was way up, demand was down a bit, but prices were still quite high.

He made a prediction that it was only a matter of time until some oil producer became the primary target of the oil price war, and then we would see extremely low prices again. I noted that just after Putin took the Crimea and the world started making disapproving noises, the price of oil dropped and Russia is in a lot of financial trouble today. Additionally, the low oil prices really hurt Iran too.

I did a bit of research a month or two back and came across this opinion page article from the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/15/opinion/thomas-friedman-a-pump-war.html?_r=2

It was written a few months before the price of oil really tanked, but Thomas Friedman separately came to the same conclusion I had. It's quite possible oil is being used as a weapon to bring down Putin in Russia and the regime in Iran and it will likely stay low until they collapse, or some other world event happens.

What's interesting is that alternative energy things have lost some attention, for example sales of PHEVs and BEVs other than Tesla have declined in 2015, though some of it might be due to new models coming out, interest in alternatives has not gone as soft as it did in the 1980s when oil prices went down after the shock of the 70s. We have a new generation interested in moving away from fossil fuels, regardless of the price. Though there are plenty of politicians who believe in "drill baby drill" and would like to punish people for using alternatives. If they come to power, a lot of the incentives for alternatives will likely go away.

Back to the original point, the price of oil and the price of aluminum refining (the ore at least) are independent of one another.

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I'd rather oil prices go up so that BEVs look better from a fuel cost perspective. But my guess is that oil prices will stay low for at least the next year because the relatively slow world economy won't increase demand much relative to the current oversupply of oil. Barring some sort of unexpected event that causes a significant reduction in supply, that is.

Here in the USA, with low gas taxes, the cost of fuel for a decent mileage ICE car is at or below parity with electricity for a BEV in places with relatively high electric rates. Huge gas guzzling trucks and SUVs are selling as fast as auto companies can make them because buyers seem to think that gas prices will stay low for a long time (and they may be right). I view this as a negative development.

[The average price in my state is $1.86/gallon = $0.49/liter = €0.45/liter]

Washington state has close to the highest gas tax in the US and the lowest electricity rates. The gas tax alone on a gallon of gas is around $0.62 and the cost of electricity averages $0.08 a KWH. I live where it's almost exactly the state average. Washington also has seen one of the highest per capita adoptions of BEVs in the US. Most of that is in the Seattle area which is quite liberal and there are other incentives such as HOV lane access with only one occupant, but the combination of high gas taxes and low electricity rates is probably a contributing factor too.

Currently the best gas price in my area is $2.23 a gallon at Safeway. The local Chevron, Arco, and 76 are $2.39. It doesn't stop people from driving SUVs around here though. Every other car in this county is an SUV.
 
So getting back on topic. Did any one notice the Chevy Bolt is aluminum, magnesium and carbon fiber. It not totally clear from the announcement but most news reports seem to suggest these materials.

I still vote that the Model 3 will be aluminum. It will be upmarket from the Bolt.
 
For no reason in particular, I like the Steel body+Plastic skin idea (or maybe Alum+Plastic). Ala Fiero and Saturn.

And I still have my fingers crossed for a Model 3 Shooting Brake design.

Please don't hope for another plastic fantastic ... i.e. Fiero and Saturn ... RIP GM :crying:
Yes please on the shooting brake design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting-brake


1920px-2012_Ferrari_FF.jpg
 
Secondly this is way off topic, but is something I heard several years ago that I thought might be out there, but filed away as a possibility. It's the notion that the US, Saudi Arabia, and some other allies conspire to manipulate the price of oil as to hurt potential enemies as much as possible... just after Putin took the Crimea and the world started making disapproving noises, the price of oil dropped and Russia is in a lot of financial trouble today. Additionally, the low oil prices really hurt Iran too...

Sorry for more off topic but I need to correct this. You have the reason for low oil prices right (OPEC price jerry-rigging) but the enemy wrong. OPEC couldn't care less about Putin or Iran. They were concerned with America becoming far less reliant on OPEC as a result of fraking and the tar sands (they see Canada's tar sands as an America asset). And that really was becoming the case:

Deloitte survey: US will become oil and gas self sufficient

So how to stop that? Easy: Drop the price drastically for 5 years. That will put fracking and the tar sands, for all intents and purposes, out of business. Then, when they raise oil back up, slowly, likely starting in year 5, industry and investors will be very weary to go back full bore on tar/fracking less it happen again. Any big company can kill a small company by lowering prices until they starve them out, then raise prices again. It happens all the time and even with the types of programs you're reading this on... remember Netscape Navigator -- it was killed by Bill Gates giving away Internet Explorer. This is Economics 101 and it's happening now with oil. OPEC could care less about world politics. They only care about one thing: their pocket book.

Fracking Boom Bursts in Face of Low Oil Prices

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...
 
Sorry for more off topic but I need to correct this. You have the reason for low oil prices right (OPEC price jerry-rigging) but the enemy wrong. OPEC couldn't care less about Putin or Iran. They were concerned with America becoming far less reliant on OPEC as a result of fraking and the tar sands (they see Canada's tar sands as an America asset). And that really was becoming the case:

Deloitte survey: US will become oil and gas self sufficient

So how to stop that? Easy: Drop the price drastically for 5 years. That will put fracking and the tar sands, for all intents and purposes, out of business. Then, when they raise oil back up, slowly, likely starting in year 5, industry and investors will be very weary to go back full bore on tar/fracking less it happen again. Any big company can kill a small company by lowering prices until they starve them out, then raise prices again. It happens all the time and even with the types of programs you're reading this on... remember Netscape Navigator -- it was killed by Bill Gates giving away Internet Explorer. This is Economics 101 and it's happening now with oil. OPEC could care less about world politics. They only care about one thing: their pocket book.

Fracking Boom Bursts in Face of Low Oil Prices

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

I have seen speculation that the price drop is aimed at hurting US oil production, but if it was, why did they wait so long to tank the price? The timing fits almost perfectly with Putin getting more aggressive on the world stage, but doesn't fit hurting US production at all. US production was way up for a couple of years before the prices started to drop. In fact the price stayed relatively high through the crash of 2008 when demand dropped and when US production boomed and the US became the #3 producer in the world. Only after the world economy was headed for recovery (with demand going back up) and US production was high for a couple of years before the price started going down. That is totally out of whack with supply and demand rules.

Since 1991 the US has become quite cozy with Saudi Arabia. Defeating Saddam Hussein, al Qaeda, and now ISIS has pushed the Saudis even closer to the US than they ever were. The recent price dip was initially caused by Saudi Arabia increasing production though there is a price war going on now.
 
I have seen speculation that the price drop is aimed at hurting US oil production, but if it was, why did they wait so long to tank the price? The timing fits almost perfectly with Putin getting more aggressive on the world stage, but doesn't fit hurting US production at all. US production was way up for a couple of years before the prices started to drop. In fact the price stayed relatively high through the crash of 2008 when demand dropped and when US production boomed and the US became the #3 producer in the world. Only after the world economy was headed for recovery (with demand going back up) and US production was high for a couple of years before the price started going down. That is totally out of whack with supply and demand rules.

Since 1991 the US has become quite cozy with Saudi Arabia. Defeating Saddam Hussein, al Qaeda, and now ISIS has pushed the Saudis even closer to the US than they ever were. The recent price dip was initially caused by Saudi Arabia increasing production though there is a price war going on now.
From what I have read recently, the big problem now is storage. There is so much oil out of the ground that they are running out of places to put it all, but nobody is willing to blink and be the first to cut production.
It hit an 11 year low at <$35 barrel this week as well.

But to attempt to stay on topic -
It would be interesting to see which way Tesla go. Repair costs for their current models seem to be pretty darned high and lead time to completed repair also seems staggeringly high.
 
Please don't hope for another plastic fantastic ... i.e. Fiero and Saturn ... RIP GM :crying:
Yes please on the shooting brake design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting-brake

1920px-2012_Ferrari_FF.jpg
As someone who owned 3 first gen Saturns (before they started selling other badge-engineered GM products), I found them decent econo-boxes just as good as anything out of Japan at the time. The first ('91 SL1) got 40 mpg highway. The plastic side panels looked fine (you couldn't tell they weren't metal without push/tapping them). The hood, trunk lid, and roof were steel.

I'd love a shooting brake/wagon/CUV design for more cargo room/dog hauling. Then we could replace the Outback.

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But to attempt to stay on topic -
It would be interesting to see which way Tesla go. Repair costs for their current models seem to be pretty darned high and lead time to completed repair also seems staggeringly high.
Since we're getting close to conspiracy theories re: oil pricing, I'll continue the conspiracy theory theme and blame Tesla for a bunch of the repair costs. Restricting the parts market, limiting access to repair info, and guarding who can become a certified repair shop is a bigger issue than aluminum body work.

Once the new F150 has been put for a bit, they'll be plenty of Al-qualified shops, and the high cost of Al repair should disappear.
 
Once the new F150 has been put for a bit, they'll be plenty of Al-qualified shops, and the high cost of Al repair should disappear.
This is why I'm glad that the Bolt is aluminum and moving it more main stream to hopefully reduce the cost.
In fairness to repair shops though, EVs are also not exactly normal to them either so there is the double whammy for costs.

As for plastic bodies - I remember a Top Gear episode where they joked about the Corvette being flimsy plastic by pushing on a rear body panel and showing it flexing.
I always thought that would be better or easier to repair, not sure that was a valid assumption or not.
Theoretically any none structural panel could be plastic - why does it have to be a choice of one metal or another?
 
Sorry for more off topic but I need to correct this. You have the reason for low oil prices right (OPEC price jerry-rigging) but the enemy wrong. OPEC couldn't care less about Putin or Iran. They were concerned with America becoming far less reliant on OPEC as a result of fraking and the tar sands (they see Canada's tar sands as an America asset).

America in the past decade has been getting very little oil from OPEC members, aside from Venezuela. The Americas (N+S together) are essentially oil-independent at this point. Saudi production supplies Europe, Asia and Africa.

I don't know that we can pin the Saudi strategy on any single thing, but hurting Russia and keeping Iran down are definitely in the mix.


Back on-topic, the Bolt being a mix of high-strength steel and aluminum lends to the Model 3 following-suit. I'd hope Tesla sticks to what it has experience with.