Am I crazy? Considering ditching my Model S for the Ford Focus RS

[EinSV]

@EinSV I think my problem with your characterizations is more a relative than an absolute one. I don't disagree with the direction things are moving into.

I disagree with hasty conclusions on the question of when we have reached that. We have a few quick drive comments on Model 3 and already people are suggesting it is superior to all ICE sedans in handling? That's taking it too far IMO.

Reality still today is that there are situations where ICEs are superior to BEVs, spirited driving around corners and track endurance are a few of these. Former is mostly due to lack of BEV choice, latter a technical issue to be solved.

I think your views are too forward-looking - projecting a future yet to happen (but one that I'd agree will happen) into today. Too early for that IMO. That's where we disagree.

I don't mind that BEVs have ruined ICE for you. I understand. But you should also understand some people value different qualities in a car and thus still find better overall solutions in ICE (e.g. for track day or perhaps for that luxobarge often discussed).

It is refreshing that we see somewhat eye-to-eye on the longer term direction.

As far as the rest of your post, I am not talking about the future, I am talking about the present. As mentioned above, IMO Model S handles very well for a car in its class. And it seems strange to pretend the Model 3 doesn't exist when they are already on the road and current S/X/Roadster owners in the U.S. like the OP and me are scheduled to start having their Model 3s delivered in a couple months.

While I understand your desire to see more information on the Model 3's handling before making any final conclusions, in light of the rave reviews so far -- including the one from Motor Trend quoted above that compared Model 3's handling favorably to the very best in its class -- unqualified statements that "ICEs are superior to BEVs" at cornering or other aspects of handling are IMO unjustified.

At best this is a subjective opinion that is contradicted by experienced car reviewers such as Motor Trend's test director. IMO, the available information, while not conclusive, suggests that the Model 3 will corner every bit as good as other performance sedans if not better. Even if you are not ready to call the question, I would think that the reports from those who have driven the Model 3 might at least cause you to hesitate to claim that ICE vehicles handle better than EVs because as you must acknowledge, that may in fact no longer be true if it ever was.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

As far as the rest of your post, I am not talking about the future, I am talking about the present

I understand that. IMO you are projecting the future into today just a bit much for my taste.

And it seems strange to pretend the Model 3 doesn't exist when they are already on the road and current S/X/Roadster owners in the U.S.

I don't pretend it doesn't exist. For many of us, though, it does not for a year+. But that's not my point. If I thought Model 3 solved all this, I'd say game over ICE. I don't think it does. Heck, there is already the Rimac Concept that solves many things. Quite possibly more than Model 3. Yet...

Even if you are not ready to call the question, I would think that the reports from those who have driven the Model 3 might at least cause you to hesitate to claim that ICE vehicles handle better than EVs because as you must acknowledge, that may in fact no longer be true if it ever was.

Here's the thing. ICE offers hundreds of cars for the sporty minded in a huge array of shapes and sizes.

All you have to offer is a couple of quick rides in one car from motoring journalists to claim all those have now been superceded? All of them? In all conditions and for all driving preferences?

Sorry, that's IMO jumping the gun. Not only do we not know the track endurance of Model 3, suggesting it handles better is all circumstances than all ICEs based on the little we know? Too much.

 

[EinSV]

I understand that. IMO you are projecting the future into today just a bit much for my taste.

And you are ignoring the present too much for mine.

Here's the thing. ICE offers hundreds of cars for the sporty minded in a huge array of shapes and sizes.

All you have to offer is a couple of quick rides in one car from motoring journalists to claim all those have now been superceded? All of them? In all conditions and for all driving preferences?

Sorry, that's IMO jumping the gun. Not only do we not know the track endurance of Model 3, suggesting it handles better is all circumstances than all ICEs based on the little we know? Too much.

Please don't put words in my mouth -- this is a strawman argument I never made.

Variety is the spice of life and it would be great if other manufacturers got off their duffs and were building gigafactories so they could produce a wide range of compelling EVs "in all shapes and sizes" and in high volume. Instead, we have a handful of homely compliance cars and press releases. In the meantime, Tesla is demonstrating that EVs can provide a compelling driving experience not just in terms of far better acceleration and responsiveness than ICE but excellent handling.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Please don't put words in my mouth -- this is a strawman argument I never made.

I genuinely don't understand how you can seemingly disagree with me then.

I say there is a plethora of ICE form-factors out there, hence they still have an upper hand in certain areas mentioned. To me this seems obvious...

Yet you seem to dismiss that based on a few reporter comments on Model 3. You said it will beat all sedans at least and even that is rich IMO...

Too soon.

 

[EinSV]

The thing is: BEVs as they currently stand have a very specific area where they drive better than ICE - the 0-30 acceleration. When you see a Model X beating a Lamborghini Aventador SV or anything like that, it is on that 0-30 where it beats it. Clearly nothing can touch an EV on the 0-30, it is just the nature of that beast.

But beyond that the shortcomings start: current BEVs (again perhaps Rimac partially excluded) can't handle spirited driving for very long at their highest performance level, they don't have the handling characteristics or the suspension etc. of true sport cars as things currently stand and there are few options for someone looking for small and nimble.

What this results is the fact that as comfy and high-performance as current BEVs are, they aren't much fun to throw around corners

For that cornering fun, you are still going to have to look at something like the Focus RS.

If you wany an agile sportscar or a luxurious luxobarge, Tesla is not yet for you.

Reality still today is that there are situations where ICEs are superior to BEVs, spirited driving around corners and track endurance are a few of these.

AR, these are a few of your statements regarding handling that I think are too extreme, and directly contradicted by the early reviews of the Model 3. I believe these statements are no longer correct if they ever were.

Also, you understate the acceleration advantages of Tesla's over comparable ICE vehicles, which include not just 0-30, but 0-60, 0-100, and passing.

As a result, I disagree with your conclusion that ICE has an overall performance advantage over EVs. EVs are the clear winner on acceleration and drivetrain responsiveness. Based on early reviews, the Model 3's handling appears to compare favorably to comparable sedans. The Model S also does well when compared against other large premium sedans. So it is hard to see how you can claim that EVs don't match up in "balanced" performance under real world driving conditions.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@EinSV

Fair enough, let's look at those comments individually:

1) "BEVs as they currently stand have a very specific area where they drive better than ICE - the 0-30 acceleration." Does this mean BEVs don't beat other cars at other acceleration ranges? Of course not. However, the 0-30 is the most distinct advantage they have compared to performance ICEs, in fact so massive that it helps BEVs win many fights where they immediately after that speed range start losing.

2) "When you see a Model X beating a Lamborghini Aventador SV or anything like that, it is on that 0-30 where it beats it." Are you suggesting a Model X will beat a Lamborghini Aventador SV at some other acceleration range? I mean, maybe the 0-30 is 0-40 or something else (0-30 is not meant as an exact claim), but the point is, the acceleration at speed is where ICEs still reign supreme. Just hit the autobahn in a Model X and you'll see.

3) "But beyond that the shortcomings start: current BEVs (again perhaps Rimac partially excluded) can't handle spirited driving for very long at their highest performance level," How could you disagree with this? Isn't it obvious that this is true?

4) "they don't have the handling characteristics or the suspension etc. of true sport cars as things currently stand and there are few options for someone looking for small and nimble." There are no small and nimble sports BEVs outside of a rear-heavy and aging Tesla Roadster and perhaps some exotics (Rimac was mentioned in my post, I am not dismissing that). Tesla hasn't made a sports suspension since P85+... How could you disagree with that?

5) "What this results is the fact that as comfy and high-performance as current BEVs are, they aren't much fun to throw around corners" I agree that this is a subjective line when taken out of context. If it bothers you, I'll concede some BEVs and for some people certainly can be fun to throw around corners. I will comment more at the end of my post. But my point is: there are no sports BEVs as this currently are...

6) "For that cornering fun, you are still going to have to look at something like the Focus RS." I will comment on this at the close of this post.

7) "If you wany an agile sportscar or a luxurious luxobarge, Tesla is not yet for you." Obviously this is true. Model 3, even if it turns our to be a superbly handling sedan, is not an agile sportscar in the sense, say, a Caterham is. Nor is any Tesla a luxobarge in the sense the new Audi A8 is. These are mere facts.

8) "Reality still today is that there are situations where ICEs are superior to BEVs, spirited driving around corners and track endurance are a few of these." Track endurance seems an obvious and widely agreed fact, I don't think even you can dispute that BEVs do not have the track endurance yet (perhaps Rimac excepted, and I did except Rimac!). On the spirited driving around corners I will comment below.

So, IMO, most of what I said is just an undisputable fact and for you the disagreement comes down to me not appreciating the cornering prowess of a Model 3 (and perhaps Model S to an extent).

First of all, I'm not dismissing the fun even of my own Model X. It certainly is fun for its size, much more fun throwing around corners than an Audi Q7 is. So, so very much. Companies other than Tesla are also looking into three and four motors in the car for ultimate torque vectoring (forger trick diffs!). These are things that clearly put BEVs on a winning trajectory compared to ICE sports cars of today. So I agree eventually BEVs will win this fight too.

But they are not there yet, that really is a fact even you agreed earlier on compared to two seater sports cars. If you find Focus RS to be a bad example of this, so be it - I don't want to argue the merits of any individual car. My point is generic. There are driving scenarios where the form-factor and handling offered by the currently very small BEV range of choice is limited compared to what is available on ICE. And there is the technical question of track/racing endurance that is yet to be solved for most (all?) BEVs.

Feel free to pinpoint your disagreement above more precisely, because if I didn't hear you right above, it is only because I am having trouble understanding it... to me what I say above seems just so very obvious and not even controversial at all...

So it is hard to see how you can claim that EVs don't match up in "balanced" performance under real world driving conditions.

This, by the way, is not my claim at all. I say BEVs lose to ICEs in specific areas: track or other agile racing as well as luxury people hauling being a few of them. So people still need ICEs or PHEVs for those. Between those extremes, in real world driving conditions BEVs can be both a lot of fun and lot of utility, obviously.

 

[Struja]

Really an impossible question for an outsider to answer because of the subjectivity of what we like.

I had a Dad on my kids hockey team tell me my Model S is "hideous". For me, it is my dream car, so do I think you are nuts? 100% I do, but do I think you are wrong? Of course not.

People like what they like and make the choices they think are most practical for them. I owned a RWD IS350 and got a S90D for a few reasons. I wanted AWD and I needed more room as my kids are now 12 and 10. I am a bit of a hippie so the Tesla hit most or all of the marks.

So, while I disagree with the guy who thinks my car is hideous, I respect his right th have a bad opinion!!!

 

[AnxietyRanger]

To be clear, though; I still think there are also some factual reasons why ICEs are better for certain scenarios.

For example, if you want a car with massage seats and those types of luxuries for the rear-seat executive, you need an ICE/PHEV at the moment. That is not a matter of opinion.

Equally, if you want a real sportscar (not a sports sedan or the like), maybe you will find some BEV somewhere to fit that description (is Rimac enough?), but it will not be a new Tesla, that's for sure. This will change eventually, but for the moment that is not a question of opinion.

Things like Focus RS will be somewhere middle of this debate...

 

[EinSV]

AR, to simplify things: I think the following statement (and other similar statements) is incorrect:

"For that cornering fun, you are still going to have to look at something like the Focus RS."​

If "cornering fun" is what someone wants in a smaller package, it is just not true that you "have to" look at an ICE vehicle like the Focus RS. Look at just these comments on the Model 3 from Motor Trend's Test Director, who has been in the business 35 years:

• "What’s blanching, though, is the car’s ride and handling. If anybody was expecting a typical boring electric sedan here, nope."
• "The ride is Alfa Giulia (maybe even Quadrifoglio)–firm, and quickly, I’m carving Stunt Road like a Sochi Olympics giant slalomer, micrometering my swipes at the apexes."
• "The Model 3 is so unexpected scalpel-like, I’m sputtering for adjectives."
• "The steering ratio is quick, the effort is light (for me), but there’s enough light tremble against your fingers to hear the cornering negotiations between Stunt Road and these 235/40R19 tires (Continental ProContact RX m+s’s)."
• "And to mention body roll is to have already said too much about it."
• "Nearly-nil body roll? Magic, I’m telling you. Magic."
• "Have I ever driven a more startling small sedan? I haven’t. At speed, it gains a laser-alertness I haven’t encountered before."
• "By happenstance, associate road test editor Erick Ayapana had penciled me into a 2.0-liter Alfa Romeo Giulia to get here, and it feels like a wet sponge by comparison."
• "And this is the single-motor, rear-wheel-drive starting point. The already boggled mind boggles further at the mention of Dual Motor and Ludicrous."

Exclusive: Tesla Model 3 First Drive Review - Motor Trend

Given this review and others, I think your statements that you must buy an ICE to enjoy superior cornering/handling is no longer correct if it ever was. (As mentioned, the Model S handles great for a large sedan IMO). And for people like the OP who are S owners in the US, the first production version of the Model 3 is scheduled to be delivered in the next few months, with deliveries to non-owners starting shortly after.

Also, as mentioned in my previous post, you seem to characterize EVs as a one-trick pony with superior acceleration at 0-30 mph but not much else going for them performance wise. As mentioned, I think that underestimates the advantages Tesla EVs have over ICE in acceleration and responsiveness, including 0-60, 0-100 and passing.

Combining better acceleration and responsiveness with the low CG and balance of an EV, I believe Tesla EVs now have an inherent overall performance advantage over ICE for most normal driving conditions. I believe these inherent advantages are showing up in the early reviews of the Model 3 like the one quoted above.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Combining better acceleration and responsiveness with the low CG and balance of an EV

I listed these advantages and more in my post, including BEVs ability to realistically use multiple motors for torque vectoring. This means BEVs should eventually be superior, they are not just there yet.

I think for you the problem comes down to me not appreciating early Model 3 reports enough yet. For one, I did not consider Model 3 an alternative in my post at all yet - I was discussing cars people can buy (even if expensive like Rimac). Secondly, we just don't have enough independent data on it anyway to compare to other cars. Third, all that said, Model 3 is still a large car form-factor-wise. It is not a sports car.

Fourth, I think we just mean very different things. You keep talking of how Model S handles and I think that shows how little you appreciate the nuances of handling in this context. I would say anyone with any experience in that area would say P85+ (and very early P85Ds) perhaps handled pretty well for a large sedan, but that can't really be said of Tesla's underpinnings since.

You seem to be talking of everyday usability, when I was discussing more track day qualities. These are very different things and I guess lead to the disagreement most of all.

The thing is: BEVs as they currently stand have a very specific area where they drive better than ICE - the 0-30 acceleration. When you see a Model X beating a Lamborghini Aventador SV or anything like that, it is on that 0-30 where it beats it. Clearly nothing can touch an EV on the 0-30, it is just the nature of that beast.

BEVs can also have a good weight distribution due to battery placement and there is immense torque vectoring potential in the use of several small, yet effective motors. But nothing beyond a Rimac Concept One has really made use of this yet to improve actual handling (not just traction or economy) and Model S/X are overall too big and heavy to really benefit from the weight distribution handling-wise... and let's not even get started on the weight distribution of the Roadster.

For some the 0-30 clearly is enough to swing the balance to BEVs permamently. It is a big deal, together with the quietness, smoothness, lack of petrol stations. Sure.

For the rest, it comes down to balance: On one side of the argument for those who want to really drive the cars (e.g. tracks, fun B roads etc.) is that 0-30. If you are drag-racing (or just want great everyday performance starting from the traffic lights), this is very useful stuff as can be witnessed. But beyond that the shortcomings start: current BEVs (again perhaps Rimac partially excluded) can't handle spirited driving for very long at their highest performance level, they don't have the handling characteristics or the suspension etc. of true sport cars as things currently stand and there are few options for someone looking for small and nimble.

What this results is the fact that as comfy and high-performance as current BEVs are, they aren't much fun to throw around corners, something that is considered the measure of a sports car beyond the drag-strip obsessed part of the world. Sure, you can accelerate like a bat out of he** away from corners (and maybe you will if you accidentally flicked that Tesla cruise control in the process), but the actual cornering itself is nothing like a good ICE or PHEV sports car or a great hot hatch/sedan can deliver at this time.

For that cornering fun, you are still going to have to look at something like the Focus RS. On the BEV side the limited-volume Rimac cars might offer an alternative, but Tesla certainly does not.

 

[EinSV]

I listed these advantages and more in my post, including BEVs ability to realistically use multiple motors for torque vectoring.

I think for you the problem comes down to me not appreciating early Model 3 reports enough yet. For one, I did not consider Model 3 an alternative in my post at all yet - I was discussing cars people can buy (even if expensive like Rimac). Secondly, we just don't have enough independent data on it anyway to compare to other cars. Third, all that said, Model 3 is still a large car form-factor-wise. It is not a sports car.

Fourth, I think we just mean very different things. You keep talking of how Model S handles and I think that shows how little you appreciate the nuances of handling in this context. I would say anyone with any experience in that area would say P85+ (and very early P85Ds) perhaps handled pretty well for a large sedan, but that can't really be said of Tesla's underpinnings since.

You seem to be talking of everyday usability, when I was discussing more track day qualities. These are very different things and I guess lead to the disagreement most of all.

We haven't seen track performance info yet on the Model 3 so that's an unknown. It's also irrelevant for most drivers. Other than that, I think we are going in circles here. I think it is very odd to ignore the Model 3 in a Tesla forum, and to dismiss the opinions of credible car reviewers about the Model 3's superior handling while making blanket statements that ICE cars corner/handle better than EVs.

I have said my piece so will sign off for now.

 

[Krugerrand]

@EinSV

Fair enough, let's look at those comments individually:

1) "BEVs as they currently stand have a very specific area where they drive better than ICE - the 0-30 acceleration." Does this mean BEVs don't beat other cars at other acceleration ranges? Of course not. However, the 0-30 is the most distinct advantage they have compared to performance ICEs, in fact so massive that it helps BEVs win many fights where they immediately after that speed range start losing.

Not even close to being true. BEVs also have regenerative braking which most find a compelling way to drive. Tesla EVs corner and slalom etc... better because of their low center of gravity. Tesla EVs have a much lower chance of flipping during accidents because of that same center of gravity - yes, safety plays a roll in the driving experience.

2) "When you see a Model X beating a Lamborghini Aventador SV or anything like that, it is on that 0-30 where it beats it." Are you suggesting a Model X will beat a Lamborghini Aventador SV at some other acceleration range? I mean, maybe the 0-30 is 0-40 or something else (0-30 is not meant as an exact claim), but the point is, the acceleration at speed is where ICEs still reign supreme. Just hit the autobahn in a Model X and you'll see.

It's prudent to keep things in context and not be ridiculous in your arguments because it makes you look purposely obtuse at best. Nobody said, insinuated, suggested or otherwise your silly question. However, the fact remains in context the Model X beat the Lambo. The context incase it escaped your awareness is: at the drag strip. And on the drag strip ICEs do NOT reign supreme, the Tesla EV does.

3) "But beyond that the shortcomings start: current BEVs (again perhaps Rimac partially excluded) can't handle spirited driving for very long at their highest performance level," How could you disagree with this? Isn't it obvious that this is true?

The only people who give a sugar about that are people who want to race their cars. That is a very SMALL portion of worldwide drivers who want to be able to race their family sedan or SUV. Context buddy. You're having a really hard time with context.

4) "they don't have the handling characteristics or the suspension etc. of true sport cars as things currently stand and there are few options for someone looking for small and nimble." There are no small and nimble sports BEVs outside of a rear-heavy and aging Tesla Roadster and perhaps some exotics (Rimac was mentioned in my post, I am not dismissing that). Tesla hasn't made a sports suspension since P85+... How could you disagree with that?

...aging Tesla Roadster... Hilarious. We'll just dismiss that car all together because it's not a 2017. I can hardly wait to see your dismissive comments when Tesla redoes the Roadster. But hey, when a well-respected drive reviewer goes on record as saying the Model 3: ride is Alfa Giulia (maybe even Quadrifoglio) you just dismiss that because of some notion he can't possibly know what he's talking about in such a short period of time. Yes, you are hilarious. And not in a good way.

8) "Reality still today is that there are situations where ICEs are superior to BEVs, spirited driving around corners and track endurance are a few of these." Track endurance seems an obvious and widely agreed fact, I don't think even you can dispute that BEVs do not have the track endurance yet (perhaps Rimac excepted, and I did except Rimac!). On the spirited driving around corners I will comment below.

First of all; that's TWO examples not a 'few'. Second, Tesla EVs can in fact, and are often in fact, driven spiritedly around corners a lot. Feel free to continue to ignore hundreds and hundreds of owner examples on this forum.

Track endurance matters not to the vast majority of the driving population. You know this. You ignore it. And continue to talk as if it's a significant downfall of EVs. Which it is not. It is largely irrelevant. The day will come, though, when even that no longer exists for you to argue about ad nauseum.

So, IMO, most of what I said is just an undisputable fact and for you the disagreement comes down to me not appreciating the cornering prowess of a Model 3 (and perhaps Model S to an extent).

Most of what you said is repeating one irrelevant point of which has already been improved upon. But hey, you keep hanging onto the need of a handful of people to race their family vehicle as some sort of metric as to how great ICEs are while polluting the air that our children and grandchildren and great grandchildren have to breathe and then have to deal with the consequences of global warming while weather like Hurricane Harvey devastates millions of lives.

There no longer is any excuse for anyone to get behind some trivial ICE performance metric as some reason to continue to promote their greatness.

 

[Krugerrand]

People like what they like and make the choices they think are most practical for them.

So, while I disagree with the guy who thinks my car is hideous, I respect his right th have a bad opinion!!!

SOME people make practical decisions, many others do not.

There is no accounting for peoples' tastes. That's a fact. However, there's no longer any practical reason to support ICEs. Tesla has proven the EV doesn't have to be a weirdmobile that can only be driven around town. Tesla has proven the EV can out perform the ICE in all relevant and important metrics. And Tesla has proven there's a way to affordability. If Tesla wasn't having to travel this road essentially on their own, we'd be seeing affordability knocked right out of the ballpark instead of the triple Tesla just hit with the Model 3.

It can be argued that taste in vehicle esthetics should no longer play any role in vehicle selection given what this planet is environmentally experiencing.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

We haven't seen track performance info yet on the Model 3 so that's an unknown.

True. Model 3 is also not yet on sale officially - as aren't many future BEVs that will surely eventually bypass ICE sports cars in handling too...

A big part of my point is that we're just not there yet. Not that BEVs won't eventually get there...

It's also irrelevant for most drivers.

That comment is hardly relevant for a Focus RS thread. RS type of models are irrelevant for most drivers in the ICE world too. Kind of shows the gap our discussion has, once again... we're discussing apples and oranges....

 

[The Peacemaker]

This is why I love Elon.