Am I Crazy to Keep FUSC instead of $5,000...

[Garlan Garner]

The thing that I totally hate about this thread has NOTHING to do with supercharging or $5k.

Its the fact that it has absolutely unequivocally not a single thing to do with the topic that birthed these discussions and that is PUP price.

Just sayin.

Talking about being deceptive..... I'm a tremendous fan of Tesla but this was the most deceiving thing that I've seen them do.

 

[Silver Ghost]

Here’s what I’m thinking:

Pros

Relatively Close Superchargers - Right now I have 2 supercharger locations near me that are about to go online. One is 5 minutes from work and the other 10 minutes from home.

$2,000 Option - That $2,000 prorated cost everyone got hung up on was a FUSC option at a time when supercharger locations were very limited in number. You would have to increase that comparison number now with the current state of supercharging available.

Supercharger Network Increase - There are only going to be more supercharging locations in the future, not less. They will become more prevalent at convenient locations like malls and rest stops - places where you would want to stop for longer than your traditional ICE fill-up.

Quick Charge - I might need to make long back to back trips with home or work as a midpoint destination. If I don't have time to wait for my Tesla to charge at 28mph, I could drive over to a close supercharger.

Unknown Future Charging Rates - We don’t know what the supercharging rate will be in the future. It could go up or down. New Jersey supercharging cost is different than most because they charge you based on time with respect to kWh being used.

Long Term Ownership - I plan on keeping my P3D until it’s either run into the ground or the cost of keeping it alive no longer makes financial sense. At the very least, if I’m done with it and I can still make money from it, I will use it as part of the Tesla Fleet Sharing Program.

Road Trips - It’ll make me want to take more road trips. With “fuel” being free, I’m more inclined to use that money toward better hotels and food. I’m not really saving money here, but I am getting to experience more.

Principle - And then there’s the Principle of the matter. I agreed to pay Tesla X amount of dollars for my Tesla. Normal dealerships give inconsistent discounts all of the time. Manufactureres add incentives throughout the entire year. It’s what you signed up for when you inked that paper.


Cons

Bay Availability - With more Teslas coming online, the percentage of open charging spots will go down by default. Even more so if Tesla opens up supercharging to other manufacturers - Elon talked about this in a recent Conference Call. He’s ok with them making an adapter for their respective cars as long as they contribute to the cost of the Supercharger Network. (This should all be alleviated by additional supercharging locations. Hopefully, Tesla is paying attention to some algorithm on their end when it comes to bay use per car per location)

Home Charging - It only costs me an additional $62.50/month right now to charge daily at home in order to travel 1,250 miles. This is super convenient. Plug it in when I get home, and then I don’t have to think about it. Five minutes before I leave I can warm or cool the cabin. $5,000 at my current electricity rate is 100,000 miles at $0.05/mile. I drive ~15,000 miles per year. It would take me ~7 years to spend that at home.

Opportunity Cost - I could take that money right now and invest in the S&P 500 and get an average annual return of 8%. That’s roughly $400+ in paper gains yearly in the short term, more in the long. I could also scoop up Ford stock at the current 7.7% dividend for $385 a year in cash flow or let it it ride on Tesla stock.

Non-Transferable - Unfortunately, FUSC does not transfer with the P3D if and when I were to sell it. My game plan in to keep the P3D, but if this were transferable there would still be some value over a P3D without it @BLKTSLA

Conclusion

At the end of the day, $5,000 is a significant chunk of change. The ultimate question that I have to ask myself is:

Q: Would I pay $5,000 right now if FUSC were an available option?

A: Yes.

Let’s pretend you own and ICE and we put it another way:

Q: Would you give Exxon $5,000 right now to get unlimited fuel for one of your cars?

A: Yes. At 8 cents per mile in fuel ($2.30 per gallon @ 30mpg) it would only take 62,500 miles to break even after 50 months of driving 1,250 miles per month. Keep in mind that an Exxon station might not be around the corner, but every time you go to one you get free gas, so it makes sense to go out of your way for it. You'd have to do a little planning ahead on road trips in order to make sure you could hit an Exxon station each time. And that's currently no different from superchargers.

----------------

Thanks for reading this far. I know my case will be different from most, but I would still like to hear what you think...

I am keeping the FUSC. Have a P3D+; the car cannot make it to work and back without a 5 to 10 KWh jump mid day. Round trip is about 170 miles but at 85 to 90 mph the electrons go fast.

 

[Garlan Garner]

I am keeping the FUSC. Have a P3D+; the car cannot make it to work and back without a 5 to 10 KWh jump mid day. Round trip is about 170 miles but at 85 to 90 mph the electrons go fast.

I'm in the same boat concerning distance to work. I really appreciate Tesla's SC network.

 

[Daniel in SD]

You have to value your time at very little to make FUSC work vs $5k.

Or you value your time so much that the time to change your credit card information every couple of years is worth $5k!

It's ridiculous how much time people will waste taking advantage of free supercharging. When the supercharger network started Tesla probably thought no one spending $100k on a car would waste half an hour of their time just to save a few bucks. They were wrong.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Or you value your time so much that the time to change your credit card information every couple of years is worth $5k!

It's ridiculous how much time people will waste taking advantage of free supercharging. When the supercharger network started Tesla probably thought no one spending $100k on a car would waste half an hour of their time just to save a few bucks. They were wrong.

save a few bucks?

I'm at 1k miles per week. I'm not going to say how many of those miles are replenished by SC'ing.

I'll just say that the benefit of SC'ing is saving me more than a few bucks.

2nd'ly the time spent at a SuperCharger is well worth it. <----- I LOVE daytime naps.

 

[gilscales]

I guess it depends on how long you are going to keep your car and how much percentage of your charging will be at a Supercharger.

I charge 90% or more of my miles at home for 12 to 13 cents a kWh on SCE's TOU-D-B plan, assuming we are getting at least 3 miles per kWh including losses (correct me if I am wrong as I have a RWD LR model) we are talking no more than 4.33 cents per mile or over 115,000 miles, even if you go by the 26 cents that the Supercharger rates are in CA then over 57,000 miles to get to break even, I personally plan to drive the car 100k to 120k miles in 5 or 6 years so I would probably only Supercharge maybe $1,000 in 5 or 6 years for me.

I bought this car for it's high tech, safety, awesome performance, economy, resale and lastly and very important to me was the convenience of not having to stop at gas stations and to be able to charge while sleeping.

How many hours would it take to use $5,000 in Supercharging? Lets say you use the very fastest rate of 170-185 range miles per 30 min. each time you charge and lets say that you really only see about 140 miles for every 30 minutes charging, you are adding about 42 kWh in a 30 min. charge under the best conditions so $5,000 is 19,230 kWh at $0.26 per kWh and divide that by 84 to get to the hours, that's approx. 229 hours or 458 charge stops, in the end you have to put in almost 6 work weeks worth of time just to get to the break even point (UNDER IDEAL CHARGING CONDITIONS!) probably more likely 7 to 8 weeks (not counting drive time to and from your nearest SC) and if you plan to keep your car for 10 years or more do you really want to Supercharge that often?

I am the owner of a RWD so not having the option of UFSC for whatever the cost these are just my personal observations however wrong they may be?

 

[gilscales]

save a few bucks?

I'm at 1k miles per week. I'm not going to say how many of those miles are replenished by SC'ing.

I'll just say that the benefit of SC'ing is saving me more than a few bucks.

2nd'ly the time spent at a SuperCharger is well worth it. <----- I LOVE daytime naps.

Looks like we found a winner! I can see that at 50,000 miles a year this would pay off plus judging by your post number you get plenty of time to catch up on TMC besides the naps, haha!

 

[Jason_G]

I live in the Midwest, and the closest supercharger is ~40mins away from my house. After doing a road trip recently, I came to the conclusion that even if an SC was placed near my place of residence or work, I wouldn’t feel right using it in that manner. One of my SC stops during my road trip was packed, and I could tell the majority of people there were local residents (as they went about their grocery shopping).

At any rate, it seems I would need to supercharge for 60,000-160,000 miles (depending on efficiency and other variables). I don’t plan to sell my P3D for the foreseeable future, but it would take a considerable amount of time for me to even put 5,000 worth of road trip miles on the car, let alone 60,000.

I do love the notion of “free” and “unlimited”, and I’m certain if I kept the FUSC it would lead to more road trips. In the end, it not being transferable is what convinced me... I think.

 

[Msjulie]

I charge mostly at work since it's available, 2nd most at home (but mostly only weekends). It's mostly not worth going to the SC 1 mile from my house cause it has a line frequently but there have been time we've done a 1/2 day-trip and the car is low enough we can't continue errands etc 'at home' without a quick stop at the SC.

My wish is people would be 'reasonable' about using it - it's not just for long distance travel etc but would be nice if people were just a bit more considerate of others. I've gone there, charged up (not 100%) and left with cars who were there before me still 'charging' <- or racking up idle time charges.

 

[JeffK]

I am keeping the FUSC. Have a P3D+; the car cannot make it to work and back without a 5 to 10 KWh jump mid day. Round trip is about 170 miles but at 85 to 90 mph the electrons go fast.

In Texas that's what... $2 a day max with a typical work schedule (5*50 days per year) that'd still take ten years to recover assuming 10 kWh per day and assuming you only get 60 kW at the supercharger ($0.20 per minute for 10 minutes).

Reality might look like $1 and some change per day and much greater than 10 year payback period.

 

[CCIE]

I appreciate all of the input thus far, along with the cast votes - truly helpful. Your added comments now lead me to request a $5,000 refund.

Some of you brought up really good points, especially when it comes to a totaled Tesla. Something that's entirely out of my hands.

I also have to consider the amount of time that I'd be spending supercharging in order to just break even on that $5,000. While at the other end of the spectrum, it's effortless to charge at home.

Again, much appreciated! I'll email them the request on Monday.

Just out of curiosity, is there any hard info on @CCIE 's comment below?

Here’s an article about Tesla permenantly reducing supercharge rates due to overusage. This isn’t the M3, and I don’t think anyone has yet had time to supercharge an M3 enough to observe what it will do. Plus, being reduced to a max rate of 90kw isn’t the end of the world. But, it’s something to keep in mind for people who supercharge everyday.

https://electrek.co/2017/05/07/tesla-limits-supercharging-speed-number-charges/

 

[ucmndd]

I won’t comment on whether or not you’re crazy, but the financial decision is cut and dry. There’s no way you’ll come out ahead by pre-paying $5,000 worth of supercharging.

 

[Daniel in SD]

A lot of people are comparing the $5k to the cost of supercharging but should really be comparing to the cost of charging at home. Even in San Diego with the most expensive electric rates in the country you can get a plan to charge at $0.10/kWh at night. Half the price of local supercharging.

 

[commasign]

Another way to look at it...

If you are going to get solar for your house, $5000 is probably enough to add an extra 2kW of power (over what you would have gotten for just your house). 2kW is probably enough to let you drive 12,000 miles a year for 20+ years and that will let you charge any EV you might get in the future.

 

[Camera-Cruiser]

Another way to look at it...

If you are going to get solar for your house, $5000 is probably enough to add an extra 2kW of power (over what you would have gotten for just your house). 2kW is probably enough to let you drive 12,000 miles a year for 20+ years and that will let you charge any EV you might get in the future.

This. Yup it makes too much sense.

I see free super charging as what it really is. A carrot.

Unfortunately a lot, and it must be thousands of people with no easy access to home or work charging took the carrot and rationalize their time spent charging as “Hey, it’s free.”

Taking the above example, if you don’t have a house to add solar too, couldn’t you take the $5K and invest/save for a house? If owning a house is not your lifestyle, then maybe see about paying some/all for installing a charger at your condo/apartment complex. Maybe for an offset in rent/HOA fees?

Me, I can’t see writing my next business plan in an outlet mall’s Super Charger, but I’m sure it will happen for someone.

 

[MacGreiner]

Finally, I'm not convinced Supercharging is the healthiest as a continued/regular charging method. Great for Interstate trips, but daily/weekly charging, I'd be nervous about...

This.

 

[Santa Claws]

Once again, I would like to thank you for the generous input you’ve provided. It’s pretty clear how the majority stand with over 100 cast votes.

I went ahead and sent Tesla a message this afternoon.

Here are the steps I took for anyone else looking to do the same:

Log in to your Tesla.com account and click “Manage” under your Perfomance Model 3. On that new page click the “Request Help” button under your P3D. And this is what I sent them:

Be sure to check off “Escalate”

And here’s the link I added at the bottom - Elon Musk on Twitter

 

[Mod3forMe]

I would not say you are crazy, but it would be unwise. Lets assume that your home electric bill stays the same, you would have to exclusively use superchargers for 5 years before you saved the $5000 you have at home, but but but.

Let's say you invested the $5K in something very safe earning you 5% interest and you used the earring to offset you home charging costs - then it would be 10 years before hot break even. If you stop owning the car (accident, sell it etc) before 10 years you lose money.

But the reality is you likely will not exclusively charge at superchargers, so it may be more like 15years before it makes sense.

 

[argon2018]

Here’s what I’m thinking:

Pros

Relatively Close Superchargers - Right now I have 2 supercharger locations near me that are about to go online. One is 5 minutes from work and the other 10 minutes from home.

$2,000 Option - That $2,000 prorated cost everyone got hung up on was a FUSC option at a time when supercharger locations were very limited in number. You would have to increase that comparison number now with the current state of supercharging available.

Supercharger Network Increase - There are only going to be more supercharging locations in the future, not less. They will become more prevalent at convenient locations like malls and rest stops - places where you would want to stop for longer than your traditional ICE fill-up.

Quick Charge - I might need to make long back to back trips with home or work as a midpoint destination. If I don't have time to wait for my Tesla to charge at 28mph, I could drive over to a close supercharger.

Unknown Future Charging Rates - We don’t know what the supercharging rate will be in the future. It could go up or down. New Jersey supercharging cost is different than most because they charge you based on time with respect to kWh being used.

Long Term Ownership - I plan on keeping my P3D until it’s either run into the ground or the cost of keeping it alive no longer makes financial sense. At the very least, if I’m done with it and I can still make money from it, I will use it as part of the Tesla Fleet Sharing Program.

Road Trips - It’ll make me want to take more road trips. With “fuel” being free, I’m more inclined to use that money toward better hotels and food. I’m not really saving money here, but I am getting to experience more.

Principle - And then there’s the Principle of the matter. I agreed to pay Tesla X amount of dollars for my Tesla. Normal dealerships give inconsistent discounts all of the time. Manufactureres add incentives throughout the entire year. It’s what you signed up for when you inked that paper.


Cons

Bay Availability - With more Teslas coming online, the percentage of open charging spots will go down by default. Even more so if Tesla opens up supercharging to other manufacturers - Elon talked about this in a recent Conference Call. He’s ok with them making an adapter for their respective cars as long as they contribute to the cost of the Supercharger Network. (This should all be alleviated by additional supercharging locations. Hopefully, Tesla is paying attention to some algorithm on their end when it comes to bay use per car per location)

Home Charging - It only costs me an additional $62.50/month right now to charge daily at home in order to travel 1,250 miles. This is super convenient. Plug it in when I get home, and then I don’t have to think about it. Five minutes before I leave I can warm or cool the cabin. $5,000 at my current electricity rate is 100,000 miles at $0.05/mile. I drive ~15,000 miles per year. It would take me ~7 years to spend that at home.

Opportunity Cost - I could take that money right now and invest in the S&P 500 and get an average annual return of 8%. That’s roughly $400+ in paper gains yearly in the short term, more in the long. I could also scoop up Ford stock at the current 7.7% dividend for $385 a year in cash flow or let it it ride on Tesla stock.

Non-Transferable - Unfortunately, FUSC does not transfer with the P3D if and when I were to sell it. My game plan in to keep the P3D, but if this were transferable there would still be some value over a P3D without it @BLKTSLA

Conclusion

At the end of the day, $5,000 is a significant chunk of change. The ultimate question that I have to ask myself is:

Q: Would I pay $5,000 right now if FUSC were an available option?

A: Yes.

Let’s pretend you own and ICE and we put it another way:

Q: Would you give Exxon $5,000 right now to get unlimited fuel for one of your cars?

A: Yes. At 8 cents per mile in fuel ($2.30 per gallon @ 30mpg) it would only take 62,500 miles to break even after 50 months of driving 1,250 miles per month. Keep in mind that an Exxon station might not be around the corner, but every time you go to one you get free gas, so it makes sense to go out of your way for it. You'd have to do a little planning ahead on road trips in order to make sure you could hit an Exxon station each time. And that's currently no different from superchargers.

----------------

Thanks for reading this far. I know my case will be different from most, but I would still like to hear what you think...

If you don't need the money, keep the unlimited supercharging. Once the new version of the supercharging comes out, you gonna be able to use way more. To me its a no brainer especially if you are planning to keep the car for a long time.

 

[Gavyne]

Speaking for myself, when I had free supercharging, I was driving my car more. Yes something about it being free just made me go out and drive the car more. Now that I don't have free supercharging, I'm watching my consumption and driving less. Pretty much I drive only as needed, where as before I was joyriding and launching at every light for fun.

I personally would've picked free supercharging, but that's also because I can't charge at home. It would've worked better for me, especially psychologically it would've made me drive my car more which I really really enjoyed doing. I would imagine for most of the people $5k would've been the better choice.