Any opinions on the D's performance in the Snow vs. non D

[Mitrovic]

For what it is worth:

I had to make a decision whether to buy a Model S AWD or RWD. I live in Switzerland and we do skiing. We had many different cars so far: FWD, AWD, RWD.

I decided to order a Model S RWD.

Why:
- From reports of other owners it seems that allthough AWD can be more capable in snow, the RWD is very good in snow, too. It is far more important that you have good tires and that you know how to drive in snow then to have AWD compared to RWD on a Model S. An electric car seems to be better in snow then a combustion engine car.
- The RWD car has more space in the frunk
- The RWD car seems to be more silent.

 

[Config]

I lived in Alaska and found that there were always more 4x4, AWD vehicles stuck in ditches because they had improper tires versus RWD or FWD vehicles with proper winter tires. Studless winter tires like the Michelin X-ice or the Nokian Hakkapelitta series seem to provide the best performance (not to include studded tires) although in my experience the X-ice doesn't wear out as fast during dry (non-wintery) conditions. In fact, on one of my vehicles (non-Tesla), I just leave the X-ice tires on all year and still get 3 seasons out of them driving an average of 12K/yr.

 

[trond.strom]

I live in Norway and I am extremely impressed with my 85D so far. It drives as if it is on rails! Its almost uncanny and probably gives me a false sense of safety.

I have driven a friends S85 on occasion and although it displays impressive control in winter condition, it does bring its rear out a fair bit, especially going downhill and regen braking.

 

[EKnight47]

No, people don't dispute that snow tires make a huge difference. They just claim AWD is enough and don't want to deal with snow tires. And I'm not just referring to people like my parents who live in the SF Bay Area but have a place in Tahoe and bought AWD vehicles specifically for that reason. I'm referring more to people who I know who live here in Bend, OR and bought SUVs, cross-overs, Subarus and Audis and paid more for the AWD because they didn't want to deal with snow tires. These are the people I see in the ditch this time of year, and these people are the biggest risk in winter driving.

I'm secure in my driving skills, and I constantly question the quality of the driving conditions. I RainX my windshield, I replace my wipers every year, I have good snow tires and I make sure my lights are always clear. I know most people take driving for granted, and AWD helps make a lot of people take bad conditions much less seriously than they should. And as careful as I am, there's nothing I can do when someone else loses control of their own car because they believed AWD was a panacea.

For all the time that I was growing up that we would drive up to the Sierras, my parents never got in an accident or got stuck in any of their 2WD cars. My dad drove cautiously and carefully and we had chains on when conditions demanded it. When I was in college, he went out and bought a 1996 Ford Explorer and rear ended a snowplow. He also spun it into a snowbank. He sold the Explorer and bought a Volvo XC70 Cross Country and has slid that through intersections and off the road a number of times (fortunately he hasn't hit anyone yet). I don't like driving with him in the winter because he DOESN'T SLOW DOWN! AWD gives him a confidence that his tires can't deliver on. He just sold the Volvo and bought a BMW X3. I'll be curious to see how he does with it this winter.

Well, your parents from the Bay area who have a house in Tahoe and your friends in Bend, OR aside.....I haven't read that anyone on THIS thread has disputed the benefits of winter tires whether on a RWD or AWD car. Winter tires is a different topic all together.

As for overconfident driving with AWD. That is not caused by AWD.....that's caused by the operator.

 

[JeffS]

I lived in Alaska and found that there were always more 4x4, AWD vehicles stuck in ditches because they had improper tires versus RWD or FWD vehicles with proper winter tires. Studless winter tires like the Michelin X-ice or the Nokian Hakkapelitta series seem to provide the best performance (not to include studded tires) although in my experience the X-ice doesn't wear out as fast during dry (non-wintery) conditions. In fact, on one of my vehicles (non-Tesla), I just leave the X-ice tires on all year and still get 3 seasons out of them driving an average of 12K/yr.

^^^ This ^^^
I replied to this thread early on, was thanked for writing back to justify my decision to not get a D. And that was not my point at all. I don't justify to anyone. I just decide. But this is so concise and accurate what is written above.

In WI too, it's comical to see all the "capable" 4x4 and AWD vehicles in the ditches. First, they go out when conditions are ridiculous...because they think they can and therefore, they should. Maybe justifying their decision to purchase AWD?
And we've all seen news footage of entire stretches of road closed due to blowing and drifting snow, cars lined up sometimes for miles. I always wonder - what in the he!! were those people doing out in this? I personally just don't get it, driving when conditions are so bad that even the professional drivers are all pulled over with the parking brake set.

Sure, there are winter sports enthusiasts that look at every snow storm as an opportunity to do what they love. And I get that.
For anyone, do and buy what makes you happy.

With that said, it's a fact that a RWD Tesla handles winter conditions exceptionally well when outfitted with proper winter tires. It's also a fact that a RWD BMW, Jag or Mercedes does the exact same thing. AWD is often a crutch used by those who do not want to learn to drive well in challenging conditions. Problem is, it's only one crutch. And if anyone has ever seen a person use one crutch...they're still prone to falling over. How often have we all thought to ourselves while being overtaken by the jacka$$ in the Subaru Outback... "sure...you can go...but can you stop?"

And those are the ones in the ditch. In Alaska. In Canada. In WI.

(edit...my Outback comment is not directed at anyone in particular. Where I live though, they are most famous for driving very poorly in deteriorating conditions. For some reason, that's the car that everyone sees making very bad decisions, sliding through intersections, hitting curbs, ditching, high centering in medians...what have you. The Impreza Outback especially...maybe because of the age of the target audience? Not sure. Just didn't want anyone with Subaru blood to take offense)

 

[EKnight47]

^^^ This ^^^
I replied to this thread early on, was thanked for writing back to justify my decision to not get a D. And that was not my point at all. I don't justify to anyone. I just decide. But this is so concise and accurate what is written above.

In WI too, it's comical to see all the "capable" 4x4 and AWD vehicles in the ditches. First, they go out when conditions are ridiculous...because they think they can and therefore, they should. Maybe justifying their decision to purchase AWD?
And we've all seen news footage of entire stretches of road closed due to blowing and drifting snow, cars lined up sometimes for miles. I always wonder - what in the he!! were those people doing out in this? I personally just don't get it, driving when conditions are so bad that even the professional drivers are all pulled over with the parking brake set.

Sure, there are winter sports enthusiasts that look at every snow storm as an opportunity to do what they love. And I get that.
For anyone, do and buy what makes you happy.

With that said, it's a fact that a RWD Tesla handles winter conditions exceptionally well when outfitted with proper winter tires. It's also a fact that a RWD BMW, Jag or Mercedes does the exact same thing. AWD is often a crutch used by those who do not want to learn to drive well in challenging conditions. Problem is, it's only one crutch. And if anyone has ever seen a person use one crutch...they're still prone to falling over. How often have we all thought to ourselves while being overtaken by the jacka$$ in the Subaru Outback... "sure...you can go...but can you stop?"

And those are the ones in the ditch. In Alaska. In Canada. In WI.

Eh. Sure...there are a lot of jackasses driving AWD vehicles that think they're invincible. That number is equal to or less than the number of drivers with RWD and snow tires that don't know how to drive in the snow. Operator error and over confidence aside....an AWD vehicle is far superior to a RWD vehicle in the snow when equipped with the same tires (winter or not). That's just a fact.

It's interesting how this thread keeps getting dragged into the discussion of the merits of winter tires. Again....we all get that winter tires are important.

 

[JeffS]

Operator error and over confidence aside....an AWD vehicle is far superior to a RWD vehicle in the snow when equipped with the same tires (winter or not). That's just a fact.

It's interesting how this thread keeps getting dragged into the discussion of the merits of winter tires. Again....we all get that winter tires are important.

False. And that's the problem. People don't get the importance of winter tires in areas that truly see winter. And "operator error aside"? That's akin to the argument of the 500# man having a heart attack and saying "diet aside...it must be genetics".

The problem isn't how many wheels drive the car. Call it old school. But tires are what make a car capable in the winter or not. Not the drive system. Next to tires comes sensibility and judgement. Next to sensibility and judgement comes skill. Next to skill comes drive-system. In that order. And as you said...that's just a fact.

In the absence of tires, sensibility, judgement and skill - it is highly recommended to use AWD. Which is what is so common these days. AWD cars on all-season tires, with drivers of ridiculous sensibilities and a vacuum of judgement and skill.

Admittedly, put tires, sensibility, judgement, skill and AWD in a car, and it's awesome. Problem is - sensibility keeps sensible people parked when the weather is the worst. So...
And then - the question - is it money well spent? Is it complexity worth having? Truth be told...and here's where we can totally derail this thread - ground clearance is often far more an issue than 4 spinning wheels. So - in the snowiest climes - is it better to spend money on air suspension than AWD?

 

[EKnight47]

False. And that's the problem. People don't get the importance of winter tires in areas that truly see winter. And "operator error aside"? That's akin to the argument of the 500# man having a heart attack and saying "diet aside...it must be genetics".

The problem isn't how many wheels drive the car. Call it old school. But tires are what make a car capable in the winter or not. Not the drive system. Next to tires comes sensibility and judgement. Next to sensibility and judgement comes skill. Next to skill comes drive-system. In that order. And as you said...that's just a fact.

In the absence of tires, sensibility, judgement and skill - it is highly recommended to use AWD. Which is what is so common these days. AWD cars on all-season tires, with drivers of ridiculous sensibilities and a vacuum of judgement and skill.

Admittedly, put tires, sensibility, judgement, skill and AWD in a car, and it's awesome. Problem is - sensibility keeps sensible people parked when the weather is the worst. So...
And then - the question - is it money well spent? Is it complexity worth having? Truth be told...and here's where we can totally derail this thread - ground clearance is often far more an issue than 4 spinning wheels. So - in the snowiest climes - is it better to spend money on air suspension than AWD?

Way to spin it. Your analogy to a 500# man having a heart attack is way off. The thread topic asks about the capabilities of a machine.....an AWD Tesla vs. RWD Tesla. That's it. Any car is dangerous with a moron driving it. And, it's a fact - not opinion - that an AWD car is better in slippery conditions. You admitted it yourself...."Admittedly, put tires, sensibility, judgement, skill and AWD in a car and it's awesome" That's all I am saying. I started the thread to find out just how much better it is.

Now to the topic of tires. Show me one person on this thread that has said that all season tires are good enough. Perhaps starting another winter tire thread would be a good idea...that way we can get back to the topic at hand.

 

[JeffS]

Way to spin it. Your analogy to a 500# man having a heart attack is...

So if I understand you correctly, we disagree? I'm trying to figure out if that's an issue...and no matter where I look...I can't find anything to indicate it is. You went and got a D. High five. Your money, your decision, who can ever in a million years argue with you about how you live your life? Certainly not me.

There's more to this thread than whether you and I will agree that AWD is at all necessary. Lots of info got bantered about. And it was all good.

 

[EKnight47]

So if I understand you correctly, we disagree? I'm trying to figure out if that's an issue...and no matter where I look...I can't find anything to indicate it is. You went and got a D. High five. Your money, your decision, who can ever in a million years argue with you about how you live your life? Certainly not me.

There's more to this thread than whether you and I will agree that AWD is at all necessary. Lots of info got bantered about. And it was all good.

I think we actually agree....AWD is superior in slippery conditions. You came in talking about driving abilities and tires. Preach on.

Yep...I got a D. High five. AWD was one of the many reasons why I chose to get a newer Model S.

 

[mknox]

I think we actually agree....AWD is superior in slippery conditions.

I think there are shades of grey here. I for one do not think AWD is any "safer" in slippery conditions which is what I sense a lot of people are thinking. I do think that AWD will allow you to accelerate more quickly in winter conditions. I do not think an AWD Model S will take you places that a RWD Model S can't go with the limiting factor being the car's ground clearance in deeper snow. I do think that AWD can mask how treacherous road conditions are an lull drivers into a false sense of security that can come and bite you in the a$$ when it comes time to stop or steer. So if "superior" means you can pull away briskly on slippery surfaces, or drive up hills with less wheel spin, then I agree, but if "superior" means you'll be safer on the road, then I disagree.

 

[AndreyATC]

I think there are shades of grey here. I for one do not think AWD is any "safer" in slippery conditions which is what I sense a lot of people are thinking. I do think that AWD will allow you to accelerate more quickly in winter conditions. I do not think an AWD Model S will take you places that a RWD Model S can't go with the limiting factor being the car's ground clearance in deeper snow. I do think that AWD can mask how treacherous road conditions are an lull drivers into a false sense of security that can come and bite you in the a$$ when it comes time to stop or steer. So if "superior" means you can pull away briskly on slippery surfaces, or drive up hills with less wheel spin, then I agree, but if "superior" means you'll be safer on the road, then I disagree.

Sometimes AWD vs RWD means you can either make that hill or not
Or you either make through that un-plowed road or not
You definitely have better chance against deep snow in AWD
You simply have twice as much pulling power/traction/grip with AWD

 

[EKnight47]

So if "superior" means you can pull away briskly on slippery surfaces, or drive up hills with less wheel spin, then I agree, but if "superior" means you'll be safer on the road, then I disagree.

Or drive up hills....period. I have always had AWD vehicles (both SUVs and Sedans) and never got stuck digging my way up the driveway until I got my Tesla.

Of course safe driving is always important. So are winter tires. I think that goes without saying.

- - - Updated - - -

Sometimes AWD vs RWD means you can either make that hill or not
Or you either make through that un-plowed road or not
You definitely have better chance against deep snow in AWD

Agreed.... I would say that makes AWD Superior. AWD can do things that RWD cannot do in snowy slippery conditions.

 

[RyanT]

I lived in Alaska and found that there were always more 4x4, AWD vehicles stuck in ditches because they had improper tires versus RWD or FWD vehicles with proper winter tires. Studless winter tires like the Michelin X-ice or the Nokian Hakkapelitta series seem to provide the best performance (not to include studded tires) although in my experience the X-ice doesn't wear out as fast during dry (non-wintery) conditions. In fact, on one of my vehicles (non-Tesla), I just leave the X-ice tires on all year and still get 3 seasons out of them driving an average of 12K/yr.

This is interesting. I was thinking maybe I'll just leave the X-ice tires on all year. I really like how quiet they are. We haven't seen many dry days here (in Portland) since I put them on but the grip seemed pretty good the one day it was. Do the tires have less grip in the summer or wear out faster then the MXM4s, I wonder.

 

[JeffS]

....I have always had AWD vehicles (both SUVs and Sedans)

And voila.
There it is.
To each their own. Safer? No. Superior at getting you up your driveway? Apparently. If I couldn't get up my driveway without AWD, I'd get AWD too. So you're right...we do agree.
Cheers!

- - - Updated - - -

This is interesting. I was thinking maybe I'll just leave the X-ice tires on all year. I really like how quiet they are. We haven't seen many dry days here (in Portland) since I put them on but the grip seemed pretty good the one day it was. Do the tires have less grip in the summer or wear out faster then the MXM4s, I wonder.

I run X-Ice-3's. They're horrible in temps over 45 or 50F. It's been so warm in WI, that I even switched back to my all-season tires after a brief spat with winter and snow in late November.
The compound is optimized for cold temps. Get into moderate or warm temps, and they're squishy unpredictable squirrely terrible tires. And if you drive them in summer temps of 70, 80 and 90 - you'll eat your winter tires up really fast. They're winter tires for a reason.

 

[EKnight47]

And voila.
There it is.
To each their own. Safer? No. Superior at getting you up your driveway? Apparently. If I couldn't get up my driveway without AWD, I'd get AWD too. So you're right...we do agree.
Cheers!.

Right. Just my driveway. Not hills in general. That would make too much sense and wouldnt support your opinion. Again...Just my driveway. Cheers!

 

[kort677]

having a set of good snow tires on any car will always trump awd with all season tires on snow/slush and ice.

 

[JeffS]

Right. Just my driveway. Not hills in general. That would make too much sense and wouldnt support your opinion. Again...Just my driveway. Cheers!

Yep... Apparently. I have a steep drive too...never had a problem. And I have never been stuck at the bottom of a hill. So I kept my commentary to you and your driveway.

Look...I have had RWD cars forever. It's just like you always having AWD. For me, its better. For you, AWD is better. Is your way a rule of thumb that everyone should follow? Nope. Neither is mine. To each their own. On to other things now. Cheers.

 

[EKnight47]

Yep... Apparently. I have a steep drive too...never had a problem. And I have never been stuck at the bottom of a hill. So I kept my commentary to you and your driveway.

Look...I have had RWD cars forever. It's just like you always having AWD. For me, its better. For you, AWD is better. Is your way a rule of thumb that everyone should follow? Nope. Neither is mine. To each their own. On to other things now. Cheers.

All in good fun. Cheers.

 

[RDoc]

My data point is our NSX (rear engine, RWD) which is positively dangerous with it's summer tires on once the temperature gets below freezing, so I've always used snow tires in the winter, currently IceXs. It is absolutely amazing to me how well this car does in snow and ice conditions, as long as the snow isn't too deep for the limited ground clearance, considering that it is hardly an off road vehicle. I'm going to see how our 85D does in snow this winter, if we ever have one, and decide on tires then, but I'm expecting to get a set of winter tires for it as well.