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I think it depends on the details of what constitutes 'slippery' conditions.
When you are near the limits but not slipping, having unpowered wheels steering will give a better result (each wheel has a finite amount of grip, which can be either used to push the car forward or to push it sideways - this is why fwd cars tend towards understeer at the limits absent creative suspension adjustments.)
However, if you get to a situation where you are mostly spinning the tires with occasional moments where they hook up, you'll get more steering from powered front wheels - in that situation, the rwd car has to get grip on a rear wheel to push it forward, and then get grip on a front wheel to push sideways while it is moving forward.
Walter
I have a Sig S RWD that came with the 19" Goodyear OEM all-season tires. I lived with them through the first winter and was unimpressed with the car's capabilities in the snow. The next winter I put on a set of Michelin X-Ice Xi3 snows and was rewarded with much improved handling in the snow. The next winter I got an early P85D, immediately put Hakka R2 snows on it and went for a road trip through the mountains during a major winter storm.
It was a revelation. The D's ability to make standing starts uphill in slippery conditions was tested thoroughly climbing out of Denver on I-70, in stop-and-go traffic, as conditions changed from wet and slushy to snowpacked and icy with increasing altitude. No problem for the D; lots of problems for just about everyone else on the road. Later that day, on an unplowed two-lane highway in northern NM, the test was 6 inches of heavy, wet snow that every passing vehicle rearranged into a different set of ruts. Powering through meant that the Wh-per-mile went through the roof, but otherwise it was no problem for the D. The RWD Sig S, even with good snow tires, just can't match the D's ability to get moving when it's slick and keep moving when it's deep.
This week Denver had its heaviest snowfall in almost three years, coming after a period of unseasonably warm, sunny weather. Saying it was slick is an understatement. No problem for the D.
It was a revelation. The D's ability to make standing starts uphill in slippery conditions was tested thoroughly climbing out of Denver on I-70, in stop-and-go traffic, as conditions changed from wet and slushy to snowpacked and icy with increasing altitude. No problem for the D; lots of problems for just about everyone else on the road. Later that day, on an unplowed two-lane highway in northern NM, the test was 6 inches of heavy, wet snow that every passing vehicle rearranged into a different set of ruts. Powering through meant that the Wh-per-mile went through the roof, but otherwise it was no problem for the D. The RWD Sig S, even with good snow tires, just can't match the D's ability to get moving when it's slick and keep moving when it's deep.
This week Denver had its heaviest snowfall in almost three years, coming after a period of unseasonably warm, sunny weather. Saying it was slick is an understatement. No problem for the D.
Forty Creek
Member
Just weighing in on this topic...
I've never owned any AWD/4WD. This is the third winter with my Model S RWD running Hakka R2 winter tires and they have been excellent.
Always felt safe even in some very nasty conditions. I have had two instances over that time where I had to move from a dead stop, up a hill in very slippery snowy conditions. On both occasions the car almost refused to move, no matter how lightly I feathered the accelerator pedal. On one of the occasions I resorted to turning off the TC however the car sort of drifted sideways (little or no forward motion). Eventually though, I was able to crawl forward very very slowly and climb the hill. Can't help thinking that AWD would have made a big difference in both of these situations. Interesting that I had the same experience in the very same spot under similar snowy conditions with my previous car (Lexus ES 350 RWD running Blizzaks).
I've never owned any AWD/4WD. This is the third winter with my Model S RWD running Hakka R2 winter tires and they have been excellent.
Always felt safe even in some very nasty conditions. I have had two instances over that time where I had to move from a dead stop, up a hill in very slippery snowy conditions. On both occasions the car almost refused to move, no matter how lightly I feathered the accelerator pedal. On one of the occasions I resorted to turning off the TC however the car sort of drifted sideways (little or no forward motion). Eventually though, I was able to crawl forward very very slowly and climb the hill. Can't help thinking that AWD would have made a big difference in both of these situations. Interesting that I had the same experience in the very same spot under similar snowy conditions with my previous car (Lexus ES 350 RWD running Blizzaks).
mknox
Well-Known Member
For sure, as you and @Forty Creek mention, standing starts on an incline will be much better with AWD. That, to me, is the most noticeable difference. There are many spots where I could just peel away in my old Cadillac AWD, but with my RWD Model S I have to gingerly get her moving. I've never not been able to get going, however, even in very deep snow. I recall pulling in to my Tesla SC's unplowed lot and was amused to see snow rolled up above my headlights at the front of the car when I parked and got out. I had actually plowed my own way in to the parking lot, and you could plainly see the flat imprint from the battery in the snow behind the car the whole way in.
THAT's cool! The RWD is the best RWD car I have ever driven in the snow...without a doubt.
When the Quebec Tesla club held a Winter driving event at local track, I was able to ride in a D. Besides getting traction quicker from a dead-stop, the D was also was also vastly superior in the slalom to my RWD, despite being handicapped by inferior Winter tires.
I was able to stop faster, though. How much of it was due to better tires and how much thanks to less weight vs the P85D?
Canadians will recognize the site of the event as one of Justin's Dad's biggest white elephants.
I was able to stop faster, though. How much of it was due to better tires and how much thanks to less weight vs the P85D?
Canadians will recognize the site of the event as one of Justin's Dad's biggest white elephants.
mknox
Well-Known Member
For those who may not have seen, before Tesla even announced AWD, they had several videos on how good their cars are in winter conditions:
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This has always been a pretty heated subject, and I have my own strong opinions on the issue. However, what bothers me most is what I perceive to be many people's incorrect belief in the marketing hype being spewed at us from the auto industry. This hype basically says AWD is the best, cross-overs and SUVs are safer, and All-season tires are just fine for all seasons.
Here's the facts, and I'm happy to back these statements up with the relevant studies if people are interested:
1) All-season tires are a compromise. They balance hot weather conditions with winter conditions, and as a result, they are not as good as season specific tires in most criteria. In many instances, WINTER tires are better than all-season tires in the summer.
2) In a car, you go, you stop and you turn. Those three force conditions are what you get to do. AWD primarily helps with the going, and it can help and hinder the turning, depending on traction, slope, conditions, weight distribution, etc. AWD does nothing for stopping (although I would guess in the Model S D versions, it probably helps in regen).
3) Your car's contact with the ground is through the tires. How much traction you have available to stop, go and turn is entirely dependent on this, regardless of whether your car is FWD, RWD or AWD.
4) AWD and proper snow tires will give you better go ability than RWD with the same tires, but both cars will stop the same.
I've always had 2 wheel drive vehicles, and I've had good snow tires on these vehicles for the past 10 years. I've never gotten stuck, I've always reached my destinations and gotten home again. I've been outspoken about snow tires and 2wd, but this has been mainly to combat the hype that says AWD and All Season tires are just fine. Every time we take a trip in the winter, the majority of the vehicles we see stuck, spun out or wrecked on the side of the road are AWD. With AWD and all season tires, the AWD gives people enough confidence to get themselves in trouble, it gets them into situations where the limited traction available to them with the all-season tires are exceeded.
The "going" part of driving is, for the most part, voluntary. Once you've decided to start going, you aren't always going to be in the position to accurately determine your turning and stopping needs. Thats when you need the most traction, delivered by the best tires you can get.
Here's a fun video that AutoExpress did a few years back comparing 2wd, AWD, summer and snow tires.
Winter Tyres or 4x4: which is best? - Auto Express - YouTube
Here's the facts, and I'm happy to back these statements up with the relevant studies if people are interested:
1) All-season tires are a compromise. They balance hot weather conditions with winter conditions, and as a result, they are not as good as season specific tires in most criteria. In many instances, WINTER tires are better than all-season tires in the summer.
2) In a car, you go, you stop and you turn. Those three force conditions are what you get to do. AWD primarily helps with the going, and it can help and hinder the turning, depending on traction, slope, conditions, weight distribution, etc. AWD does nothing for stopping (although I would guess in the Model S D versions, it probably helps in regen).
3) Your car's contact with the ground is through the tires. How much traction you have available to stop, go and turn is entirely dependent on this, regardless of whether your car is FWD, RWD or AWD.
4) AWD and proper snow tires will give you better go ability than RWD with the same tires, but both cars will stop the same.
I've always had 2 wheel drive vehicles, and I've had good snow tires on these vehicles for the past 10 years. I've never gotten stuck, I've always reached my destinations and gotten home again. I've been outspoken about snow tires and 2wd, but this has been mainly to combat the hype that says AWD and All Season tires are just fine. Every time we take a trip in the winter, the majority of the vehicles we see stuck, spun out or wrecked on the side of the road are AWD. With AWD and all season tires, the AWD gives people enough confidence to get themselves in trouble, it gets them into situations where the limited traction available to them with the all-season tires are exceeded.
The "going" part of driving is, for the most part, voluntary. Once you've decided to start going, you aren't always going to be in the position to accurately determine your turning and stopping needs. Thats when you need the most traction, delivered by the best tires you can get.
Here's a fun video that AutoExpress did a few years back comparing 2wd, AWD, summer and snow tires.
Winter Tyres or 4x4: which is best? - Auto Express - YouTube
hybridbear
Active Member
My takeaway from this thread is that I need to go test drive a Model S right after we have a snow storm & compare the RWD S versus a D. Living in the inner city, we rarely drive in deep snow on unplowed roads. The city of Minneapolis is very quick to plow roads after a snow storm. The suburb of Edina (where we live) is also very quick to plow. We don't have long commutes, so we are almost never driving more than 5-6 miles in any type of bad weather. We've never seen the need for snow tires since we almost always drive on dry roads, even in the winter. If the roads are that bad, we can just stay home.
My wife grew up in Winnipeg & there snow tires are a necessity for everyone because the city doesn't really bother to plow. They don't really plow residential streets at all. You can't get by in Winnipeg without snow tires. In Minneapolis, that's not the case. I remember being almost stuck multiple times in Winnipeg in the winter when visiting because I didn't have snow tires because they just aren't needed in Minneapolis. Granted, we live in an inner ring suburb. Residents of the Twin Cities who live in outer ring suburbs would probably have a use for snow tires way more often than we do.
My wife grew up in Winnipeg & there snow tires are a necessity for everyone because the city doesn't really bother to plow. They don't really plow residential streets at all. You can't get by in Winnipeg without snow tires. In Minneapolis, that's not the case. I remember being almost stuck multiple times in Winnipeg in the winter when visiting because I didn't have snow tires because they just aren't needed in Minneapolis. Granted, we live in an inner ring suburb. Residents of the Twin Cities who live in outer ring suburbs would probably have a use for snow tires way more often than we do.
I haven't seen anyone dispute that snow tires are important and make a huge difference. I think that's a no brainer for anyone that has lived in an area that typically gets snowy and icy conditions.
RWD with winter tires will get you there. AWD with winters will get you there with ease.
Im curious if the AWD Model S outperforms the Subarus and Audis out there.
RWD with winter tires will get you there. AWD with winters will get you there with ease.
Im curious if the AWD Model S outperforms the Subarus and Audis out there.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
I've had both an Audi and a Subaru as well as a Land Rover. The model SD outperforms all of these cars. Baby version as superior performance and handling in all conditions from dry road too wet road to snow and ice.
No, people don't dispute that snow tires make a huge difference. They just claim AWD is enough and don't want to deal with snow tires. And I'm not just referring to people like my parents who live in the SF Bay Area but have a place in Tahoe and bought AWD vehicles specifically for that reason. I'm referring more to people who I know who live here in Bend, OR and bought SUVs, cross-overs, Subarus and Audis and paid more for the AWD because they didn't want to deal with snow tires. These are the people I see in the ditch this time of year, and these people are the biggest risk in winter driving.
I'm secure in my driving skills, and I constantly question the quality of the driving conditions. I RainX my windshield, I replace my wipers every year, I have good snow tires and I make sure my lights are always clear. I know most people take driving for granted, and AWD helps make a lot of people take bad conditions much less seriously than they should. And as careful as I am, there's nothing I can do when someone else loses control of their own car because they believed AWD was a panacea.
For all the time that I was growing up that we would drive up to the Sierras, my parents never got in an accident or got stuck in any of their 2WD cars. My dad drove cautiously and carefully and we had chains on when conditions demanded it. When I was in college, he went out and bought a 1996 Ford Explorer and rear ended a snowplow. He also spun it into a snowbank. He sold the Explorer and bought a Volvo XC70 Cross Country and has slid that through intersections and off the road a number of times (fortunately he hasn't hit anyone yet). I don't like driving with him in the winter because he DOESN'T SLOW DOWN! AWD gives him a confidence that his tires can't deliver on. He just sold the Volvo and bought a BMW X3. I'll be curious to see how he does with it this winter.
tliving
Member
I have a S85 with the Nokian R2s and it did great last winter and I expect the same again this winter. Still, i'd feel better (and would have paid for) the D if it had been a choice. I like the options you get with AWD in bad weather. With RWD only (my first RWD in a very long time) I have to plan a bit more around hills and starts. AWD along with AP are the two things that could make me trade in my S on another S or an X.
Do you have some examples of winter tires on model S performing better than all-season tires? I know winter tires are better in snow, but I usual default to all-season because I would like my control on dry pavement too. I guess I want a all-in-one solution so I don't have to change tires and what-not base on the seasons. I always hear winter tires perform worst in dry condition and you pay both a pre-mature wear penalty as well as the range if you use winter tires when you don't need to.
Winter tires in general have a softer tread compound than all-seasons. When it's really cold out, all-seasons (and even worse, summer tires) are too hard for good dry traction, while winter tires are "just right". The soft compound will shred really quickly once the weather warms up. The wear isn't that bad if you don't drive on them into May.
There's a lot of winter tire info and test results on TireRack's site - http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testSearch.jsp?fromWintertesting=true
There are lots of choices to pick from in winter tires, with different trade offs (optimized for dry/wet/snow/ice). Porsche does a lot of winter tire testing and comes out with recommendations every year or two - http://files2.porsche.com/filestore...&version=0757e7d8-158a-11e5-b369-0019999cd470
Having owned multiple Subarus, a P85+, and a P85D, as well as having equipped all of them with the same model of snow tire I'd rate them as such:
P85+ 80% of Subaru (with same snow tires)
P85D 160% of Subaru (with same snow tires)
Videos of me going up the same hill with my P85+ and P85D in similar conditions. My camera stopped recording on the P85+ video and you will have to skip toward the end. But I was able to stop and start on the slick hill. I had to go very light on the throttle. On the P85D you just drive, I've never been more confident in an automobile in the snow.
Tesla Model S P85+ Snow Performance - YouTube
Tesla Model S P85D Snow Performance - YouTube
I shot a new video 2 days ago of me stopping and starting on the same hill in my P85D, but I haven't had a chance to upload it yet.
P85+ 80% of Subaru (with same snow tires)
P85D 160% of Subaru (with same snow tires)
Videos of me going up the same hill with my P85+ and P85D in similar conditions. My camera stopped recording on the P85+ video and you will have to skip toward the end. But I was able to stop and start on the slick hill. I had to go very light on the throttle. On the P85D you just drive, I've never been more confident in an automobile in the snow.
Tesla Model S P85+ Snow Performance - YouTube
Tesla Model S P85D Snow Performance - YouTube
I shot a new video 2 days ago of me stopping and starting on the same hill in my P85D, but I haven't had a chance to upload it yet.
