AP 2.0 on submitted orders

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

That's what I'm counting

In addition to my previous post. It would seem like a programming nightmare to downgrade functionality of the AP2 functions to mimic AP1 functions with AP2 hardware. I worked at HP where a manufacturer would stay clear of that type of uniqueness of maintaining a separate version level than everyone else. It would have to house an entire team dedicated to maintaining that version constantly mimicking the AP1 functions. It wouldn't be as simple as using AP1 versioned software with AP2 hardware. firmware and drivers would be completely different. So, just seems strange to me.

That's what I'm counting on. Sorta like calling their bluff. It's fun to gamble when the stakes aren't very high.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

You might want to check with your DS again. I am in the same situation. I ordered MX with AP1 selected; $3000. I talked with my DS on otpions after announcement. Late November - December delivery, BTW. The vehicle is being built with AP2 hardware. It has no compatibility to the AP1 hardware. Options: 1) Do no elect the EAP reducing my final cost by $3000 that I reserved with AP1 functionality; 2) Elect for the EAP and pay an additional $2000; 3) Elect EAP and Autonomy and pay an addional $5000. I choose option 3. It doesn't seem feasible that they would build a vehicle with both AP1 and AP2 hardware since the architecture is completely different; Skyeye? vs. NVIDIA.

From what I've heard, and I've heard a lot, he's wrong. You really can't trust Tesla staff. I think they make a lot of stuff up. Not on purpose but just out of laziness and not knowing the subject matter very well. But maybe Tesla changed their policy. Thanks for the warning.

 

[maratd]

In addition to my previous post. It would seem like a programming nightmare to downgrade functionality of the AP2 functions to mimic AP1 functions with AP2 hardware. I worked at HP where a manufacturer would stay clear of that type of uniqueness of maintaining a separate version level than everyone else. It would have to house an entire team dedicated to maintaining that version constantly mimicking the AP1 functions. It wouldn't be as simple as using AP1 versioned software with AP2 hardware. firmware and drivers would be completely different. So, just seems strange to me.

I'm surprised you guys don't see where they're going with this. They will develop 3 levels of autonomy and will continue to sell those 3 levels indefinitely. They're just not offering the lowest level for sale at the moment because they want all the people who are excited about the new hardware to pay more. In a quarter or two, watch the regular vanilla autopilot come back as an option. That's why they're calling the new expensive option enhanced autopilot. It insinuates that will be an regular option at some point. By spring, I expect the options to be autopilot, enhanced autopilot, and autonomous, all priced accordingly.

From an engineering perspective, it is absolutely not a nightmare and couldn't be further from it. The system isn't mimicking anything. They are building a single fully-featured suite from the ground up and then they're simply turning features off. Couldn't be simpler. From this approach, I expect the base autopilot to do the very same things that were possible under the original hardware, but I expect those things will be done better since it'll be running on the new hardware and new software that Tesla fully controls. Enhanced autopilot will have additional features, which they talked about. Autonomous will have everything turned on. They'll just be switching features on and off depending on how much money you give them, but they'll only be developing and maintaining one software suite.

Microsoft takes the same approach to operating systems. They develop a single operating system and then they turn features on and off, then call it Windows Home, Windows Pro, Windows Enterprise, etc. and charge accordingly.

 

[Dr Doom]

I'm surprised you guys don't see where they're going with this. They will develop 3 levels of autonomy and will continue to sell those 3 levels indefinitely. They're just not offering the lowest level for sale at the moment because they want all the people who are excited about the new hardware to pay more. In a quarter or two, watch the regular vanilla autopilot come back as an option. That's why they're calling the new expensive option enhanced autopilot. It insinuates that will be an regular option at some point. By spring, I expect the options to be autopilot, enhanced autopilot, and autonomous, all priced accordingly.

From an engineering perspective, it is absolutely not a nightmare and couldn't be further from it. The system isn't mimicking anything. They are building a single fully-featured suite from the ground up and then they're simply turning features off. Couldn't be simpler. From this approach, I expect the base autopilot to do the very same things that were possible under the original hardware, but I expect those things will be done better since it'll be running on the new hardware and new software that Tesla fully controls. Enhanced autopilot will have additional features, which they talked about. Autonomous will have everything turned on. They'll just be switching features on and off depending on how much money you give them, but they'll only be developing and maintaining one software suite.

Microsoft takes the same approach to operating systems. They develop a single operating system and then they turn features on and off, then call it Windows Home, Windows Pro, Windows Enterprise, etc. and charge accordingly.

this would be fine if there is the same hardware and just needed software changes. But this is a completely different hardware suite with more cameras, sensors and brand new tech. The previous AP1 was with mobile eye and now their cameras and sensors are in house technology.

To be frank, I am an avid Tesla fan but I think the way they handled this AP2 rollout was rather poorly. they could've grandfathered the original AP1 buyers to the eap without added cost. and they could have made us paid for the more expensive full autonomy features. they have in the past grandfathered people who had made a purchase and they added new tech without any additional costs. now they have two different sets of autopilot 1 vs 2 software that they need to maintain with new hardware and the older legacy hardware. it's like three tiered systems: old hardware with ap1, new hardware with ap1, new hardware with eap. just makes it overtly complicated. can't imagine the headaches with bugs and compability.

 

[Tony8489]

I'm surprised you guys don't see where they're going with this. They will develop 3 levels of autonomy and will continue to sell those 3 levels indefinitely. They're just not offering the lowest level for sale at the moment because they want all the people who are excited about the new hardware to pay more. In a quarter or two, watch the regular vanilla autopilot come back as an option. That's why they're calling the new expensive option enhanced autopilot. It insinuates that will be an regular option at some point. By spring, I expect the options to be autopilot, enhanced autopilot, and autonomous, all priced accordingly.

I'm inclined to agree with this. There will be some price sensitivity, especially on Model 3. Many people won't want to pay $5,000 but may be willing to pay half that for a more basic system like AP1.

 

[MP3Mike]

I'm inclined to agree with this. There will be some price sensitivity, especially on Model 3. Many people won't want to pay $5,000 but may be willing to pay half that for a more basic system like AP1.

Or an even lower level that only had TACC.

 

[Sonny Daze]

I'm surprised you guys don't see where they're going with this. They will develop 3 levels of autonomy and will continue to sell those 3 levels indefinitely. They're just not offering the lowest level for sale at the moment because they want all the people who are excited about the new hardware to pay more. In a quarter or two, watch the regular vanilla autopilot come back as an option. That's why they're calling the new expensive option enhanced autopilot. It insinuates that will be an regular option at some point. By spring, I expect the options to be autopilot, enhanced autopilot, and autonomous, all priced accordingly.

Aren't these basically the same features AP 1 users were promised? What would be the difference between AP and EAP?

 

[MP3Mike]

Aren't these basically the same features AP 1 users were promised? What would be the difference between AP and EAP?

View attachment 200719

Not exactly. Here is what it seems like the difference is:

• 1 camera instead of 4
• Autosteer+
• Automatic matching of speed to traffic conditions (Maybe more than just TACC, maybe takes into account weather?)
• Automatic lane changing without driver input
• Smart Summon
• Transition from one freeway to another
• exit the freeway when your destination is near (AP1 with 8.1 might do this or most of it.)
• self-park when near a parking spot

 

[Sonny Daze]

Here is AP 1:

Autopilot Convenience Features
Dramatically improve the convenience and enjoyment of road trips and your commute by automatically piloting Model X at highway speeds and in stop-and-go traffic. Autopilot enables Model X to match your speed to traffic conditions, steer around curves within the lane and automatically changes lanes with a tap of the turn signal. Summon, a recently released Autopilot feature, enables Model X to automatically park and unpark itself, opening and closing the garage door automatically. Model X can also scan for parking spaces, alert you when one is available and parallel park on command.

They also promised transition to freeway offramps with 8.0 if I'm correct. Just doesn't seem like a clear difference between the two that they could sell as a different package (at this stage). Maybe when EAP gets a chance to define itself it will be more clear . I guess w'ell find out.

 

[rush6410]

I'm surprised you guys don't see where they're going with this. They will develop 3 levels of autonomy and will continue to sell those 3 levels indefinitely. They're just not offering the lowest level for sale at the moment because they want all the people who are excited about the new hardware to pay more. In a quarter or two, watch the regular vanilla autopilot come back as an option. That's why they're calling the new expensive option enhanced autopilot. It insinuates that will be an regular option at some point. By spring, I expect the options to be autopilot, enhanced autopilot, and autonomous, all priced accordingly.

From an engineering perspective, it is absolutely not a nightmare and couldn't be further from it. The system isn't mimicking anything. They are building a single fully-featured suite from the ground up and then they're simply turning features off. Couldn't be simpler. From this approach, I expect the base autopilot to do the very same things that were possible under the original hardware, but I expect those things will be done better since it'll be running on the new hardware and new software that Tesla fully controls. Enhanced autopilot will have additional features, which they talked about. Autonomous will have everything turned on. They'll just be switching features on and off depending on how much money you give them, but they'll only be developing and maintaining one software suite.

Microsoft takes the same approach to operating systems. They develop a single operating system and then they turn features on and off, then call it Windows Home, Windows Pro, Windows Enterprise, etc. and charge accordingly.

If you read my post, I made two assumptions that supported my statements. AP1 reduced functions not an option with AP2 hardware and only supporting said AP1 function for folks who already paid for it but receive AP2 hardware, with support for those limited folks. The difficulties are only true if my assumptions are correct. From what I heard from my DS and observations from current offerings on ordering today support those assumptions. I agree if they were offering three options with AP2 it would be as simple as you explained. But, the fact is they are not offering reduced AP below EAP. If they were, I would think it would already be available for order. It just doesn't make sense to not offer it. Why leave it off since it is the simplest scenario allowing them to collect on the $3000 today on new orders. I do understand you position that they want to take advantage of the excitement on the announcement and have ppl shell for the higher option not offering a lowing option but until maybe later. But, the alternative is ppl will not opt for it at all potentially leaving $3000 on the table.

 

[maratd]

But, the alternative is ppl will not opt for it at all potentially leaving $3000 on the table.

Those same people who choose not to get it now, can get it later when it is an option. Just click upgrade. They'll send a nice email a few months down the road "Hey, want to upgrade to AP for $2K?"

It makes no sense for them to invest time and energy to create a gimped version that will only be used for the very few who fell into the order queue during a weird time. There is only one software suite and they're flipping switches.

And it makes no sense for them to call it "Enhanced Autopilot" and not have an "Autopilot". Just from a sales perspective, they'd be leaving a ton of cash on the table, as you say. Some just don't want to pay more than $2k or $3k. It'll be an option eventually.

Tesla plays with options this way all the time. Can you order a non-performance 100D? No. Why? Because they want the $$$ right now from everybody who's willing and when the orders start dying down, they'll offer a regular 100D at a lower price.

 

[maratd]

Aren't these basically the same features AP 1 users were promised? What would be the difference between AP and EAP?

Honestly, I don't think even Tesla knows what EAP is yet. I know they put some marketing stuff there, but I don't think that they finished the software yet. They haven't even finished regular AP on the new hardware yet.

I think they'll wrap up basic AP stuff in December (hopefully). Anything they think up after December and add to the software will be EAP, until late 2017. After that point, anything added to the system will be Autonomous.

 

[rush6410]

Those same people who choose not to get it now, can get it later when it is an option. Just click upgrade. They'll send a nice email a few months down the road "Hey, want to upgrade to AP for $2K?"

It makes no sense for them to invest time and energy to create a gimped version that will only be used for the very few who fell into the order queue during a weird time. There is only one software suite and they're flipping switches.

And it makes no sense for them to call it "Enhanced Autopilot" and not have an "Autopilot". Just from a sales perspective, they'd be leaving a ton of cash on the table, as you say. Some just don't want to pay more than $2k or $3k. It'll be an option eventually.

Tesla plays with options this way all the time. Can you order a non-performance 100D? No. Why? Because they want the $$$ right now from everybody who's willing and when the orders start dying down, they'll offer a regular 100D at a lower price.

I hear what you are saying and could very well work out that way. I am questioning that they are offering it with folks in the queue. I am in that situation and was not offered leaving the $3000 I opted for with AP1 functions. My DS said it is not an option. But, some folks heard it is an option. So, I guess we will find out which is actually true soon enough. I wanted APE so, I will probably not question the AP1 option. Other folks will need to confirm.

 

[hollywood]

I hear what you are saying and could very well work out that way. I am questioning that they are offering it with folks in the queue. I am in that situation and was not offered leaving the $3000 I opted for with AP1 functions. My DS said it is not an option. But, some folks heard it is an option. So, I guess we will find out which is actually true soon enough. I wanted APE so, I will probably not question the AP1 option. Other folks will need to confirm.

I think what will happen is you will get EAP software with restrictions. Essentially certain functions will be left locked in your version. Similar to what maratd said, three levels to be made, so model 3 owners will have an "affordable" option in addition to the higher premium options of EAP and full AP.

I am getting the AP 2.0 hardware and want to utilize that gift. I didn't want a limited version of AP when I hunkered down $3k. At that time, it was the only AP, and it was getting every update possible. Now on, I think it's getting restricted updates.

 

[rush6410]

I think what will happen is you will get EAP software with restrictions. Essentially certain functions will be left locked in your version. Similar to what maratd said, three levels to be made, so model 3 owners will have an "affordable" option in addition to the higher premium options of EAP and full AP.

I am getting the AP 2.0 hardware and want to utilize that gift. I didn't want a limited version of AP when I hunkered down $3k. At that time, it was the only AP, and it was getting every update possible. Now on, I think it's getting restricted updates.

I have already been confirmed EAP and Autonomy with my late November delivery.

 

[vandacca]

I think part of the reason for all this confusion is that Tesla is trying to tread a very fine line between AutoPilot features and Autonomous Driving features. None of the current AP features are tied to navigation in any way, so it's clearly AutoPilot.

Some of the Enhanced AutoPilot (EAP) features are beginning to work with navigation (e.g. freeway-to-freeway exchanges) and this is beginning to introduce Autonomous Driving features and it's unclear how regulators will react to these new features.

Anyway, there are a small group caught in the middle of the AP and EAP migration, so it's not really worth discussing. If they have paid for AP, they clearly are interested in these conveniences, so upgrading to EAP should be a no-brainer (assuming that the extra cost isn't too much of a burden).

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

I think it has been a very interesting discussion to those that are caught in the middle. I agree it's probably not very interesting to those that are not. I don't think it's a matter of the cost being too much of a burden, but whether the benefit is worth the cost.

 

[vandacca]

I think it has been a very interesting discussion to those that are caught in the middle. I agree it's probably not very interesting to those that are not. I don't think it's a matter of the cost being too much of a burden, but whether the benefit is worth the cost.

While I agree that "value is in the eye of the beholder" (or something like that), in the long run I think EAP is going to be a no-brainer.

However, right now it's technically vapourware and sometime after December it should be on par with the classic AP. Sometime in the future (6-10 months?) it should surpass classic AP and that's when I think it will be a no-brainer decision.

I think it comes down to how well do you trust Tesla and your local road transportation regulators? If you trust them both, then get it now. If you don't, decide later.

 

[hollywood]

I think it has been a very interesting discussion to those that are caught in the middle. I agree it's probably not very interesting to those that are not. I don't think it's a matter of the cost being too much of a burden, but whether the benefit is worth the cost.

It's weird for us caught in the middle. I think that since Tesla left us hanging without being grandfathered in, they must have a long-term plan to offer a cheaper alternative EAP. we will have to wait and see, but I'm going to gamble halfway and go with EAP and not full autonomy. If I was a gambler, I'd go your route and see if you get ushered in.

 

[alexcuse]

Even though many are not picking the self-driving option due to uncertainty of state regulation, in my mind this option could still be worth it even if states don't pass regulation.

My speculation is that they will offer in the near future (before state regulation changes) an option to enable autopilot for local driving/red lights/auto-turning, but you have to sit in the driver's seat with hands on the wheel ready to take control at a moment's notice. Pretty much like the demo video a few weeks ago where the guy just places his hand on the wheel for legal purposes.

The uncertainty to me is whether this feature would be part of the self-driving option only, or it would be available as part of enhanced autopilot package. If part of self-driving option only, this feature may be well worth paying for even with the uncertainty of state regulation.