AP at a Fork, slamed brake, is this normal?

[Lunares]

To go into a little more the reason why this happens.

AP does not just use a neural net for image identification (e.g. where the lines are). Tesla has taken the approach of a neural network for the driving decisions as well. This system has minimal, if any future prediction (in current implementation). So it's purely looking at "am I in the middle of a lane" because that's how it's been trained (for default AP, NoA is trained to take exits). It does not look ahead to see "where am I going to be in that splitting lane" (yet).

Because it's a NN, you can't just introduce behaviors arbitrarily like with fixed code "do this when the lane splits". You would have to train the system on what to do with wider lanes. But wider lane behavior is not consistent, nor does Tesla have a frame rate that supports specialized decision making at high speed when lane markers change.

Hopefully these things will be fixed with HW3 training + FPS upgrades, but until then this is not a surprising behavior given how autopilot is created.

 

[borugee]

I don't know if i should take you seriously or you are trolling here. That section 65 mph IS A highway, where 121 and 114 splits (see google map below). Next from your video, it didn't look like it was slamming the brakes. It slowed down and if you had not taken over, it would take the right or the left highway but would have been very jerky. How do I know? I have gone through this section over 100 times in the last many years, both on AP1 and 2.

@Electroman your recognized 121 / 114 split is not where this happened to me (You did not recognize the location correctly). Anyone local can confirm this behavior. You need to travel on 121 south bound on local road with AP on and see what happens. GPS location is here. (33°03'10.4"N 96°55'05.9"W - find it on Google Maps). Red arrow show direction of travel and circle show how road fork to two. There are 3 lanes, and you need to be in the middle lane for this to happen.

My initial post is not to be offensive or not to say AP is killing people. I use it too, so it is my life in the life too. I wanted to know if it can go wrong like this. I thought, in this situation, it need to take either left or right, and not to brake. But when this happened to me I felt uncomfortable and bit scared, having heard, one AP driver in CA got into a crash by hitting the middle of a concreate barrier. I wanted to know if this is how AP would work. I am new to using AP, and need to learn how it behave. Two possibilities for me, either my AP is defective or this is how it is and deal with it, that is when I came to the forum. Don't know why some are getting offended. But to me, I am trying to learn out of this to be more aware about how and when to use AP. I need to be more careful when I am on autopilot, especially on new roads. When I start using the same road every day, maybe I will get used to it. But new roads, we need to be extra cautious for us to learn how the NN behave on these conditions. I don't think there is a way to train the NN, instead we need to learn how NN work (Sad). Again point I am trying to make is, car either should have taken left or right without braking and trying to go to the middle. Shouldn't this be taken positive? I am trying to help myself and also others, who need to know its behavior.


Appreciate for the comments.

 

[borugee]

To go into a little more the reason why this happens.

AP does not just use a neural net for image identification (e.g. where the lines are). Tesla has taken the approach of a neural network for the driving decisions as well. This system has minimal, if any future prediction (in current implementation). So it's purely looking at "am I in the middle of a lane" because that's how it's been trained (for default AP, NoA is trained to take exits). It does not look ahead to see "where am I going to be in that splitting lane" (yet).

Because it's a NN, you can't just introduce behaviors arbitrarily like with fixed code "do this when the lane splits". You would have to train the system on what to do with wider lanes. But wider lane behavior is not consistent, nor does Tesla have a frame rate that supports specialized decision making at high speed when lane markers change.

Hopefully these things will be fixed with HW3 training + FPS upgrades, but until then this is not a surprising behavior given how autopilot is created.

@Lunares Make sense to me. Is there a way to improve NN decisioning process by going over the same place multiple times without braking?

 

[borugee]

The car really doesn't know what the "main" road is, or should be.
And yes, Y-intersections are the kryptonite for Tesla's AP. At all speeds, and under all circumstances.

Two ways for you to potentially mitigate your situation:
1). Drive under Navigate on AP, which would manifest a preference to bear left or right at that intersection.
2). Drive in the right-most lane, to remove the turn decision from AP's consideration.
3). Drive behind another car, if available. AP will follow and do whatever the leading car is doing.


a

Thank you and very helpful advice. Cancelling the AP in a Y would be the best thing if we know a Y is ahead. At least on this particular road, NoA do not work (local road).

Coming to know the limitations is valuable anyway.

 

[borugee]

Maybe I'm off base here, but since a human was responsible for the car, the human should have chosen which way to go. Why leave this to the car? There were two choices, and you didn't tell the car where you were going, what your destination was. Speaking as a human, I'd wonder which way to go myself - but I would know my destination and choose accordingly. I agree with others that braking might not be the best solution. Defaulting to the right might be better.

My point is humans make mistake, AP is on, AP see a Y junction and car brake/stop in the middle (safety concern). Instead, human make mistake, AP on, AP see Y junction, AP should know which road is priority to take, either left or right. If wrong road, human deal with the mistake later. If stopped in the middle, possible accident.

 

[aspec818]

i've always wondered what basic ap does at junctions. I have basic ap and I always cancel ap when there's a junction or split. I don't want to test what happens.

 

[JBT66]

Regular AP knows nothing other than what’s on the road in front of it. Clearly it does not look at historical data of specific roads or maps.

Lane splitting is generally annoying. It would seem to me if it stuck to the left line for longer it would help a lot.

 

[Lunares]

@Lunares Make sense to me. Is there a way to improve NN decisioning process by going over the same place multiple times without braking?

Not locally as in your car.

Obviously the hope is that as people take over and disable NoA when it doesnt work right, Tesla can use that as training data for the NN. The claimed in their autonomy day to have that ability. They needed the extra processing capability of HW3 to expand the NN though.

We will just have to see end of the year.

 

[Electroman]

@Electroman your recognized 121 / 114 split is not where this happened to me (You did not recognize the location correctly). Anyone local can confirm this behavior. You need to travel on 121 south bound on local road with AP on and see what happens. GPS location is here. (33°03'10.4"N 96°55'05.9"W - find it on Google Maps). Red arrow show direction of travel and circle show how road fork to two. There are 3 lanes, and you need to be in the middle lane for this to happen.


View attachment 412771

My initial post is not to be offensive or not to say AP is killing people. I use it too, so it is my life in the life too. I wanted to know if it can go wrong like this. I thought, in this situation, it need to take either left or right, and not to brake. But when this happened to me I felt uncomfortable and bit scared, having heard, one AP driver in CA got into a crash by hitting the middle of a concreate barrier. I wanted to know if this is how AP would work. I am new to using AP, and need to learn how it behave. Two possibilities for me, either my AP is defective or this is how it is and deal with it, that is when I came to the forum. Don't know why some are getting offended. But to me, I am trying to learn out of this to be more aware about how and when to use AP. I need to be more careful when I am on autopilot, especially on new roads. When I start using the same road every day, maybe I will get used to it. But new roads, we need to be extra cautious for us to learn how the NN behave on these conditions. I don't think there is a way to train the NN, instead we need to learn how NN work (Sad). Again point I am trying to make is, car either should have taken left or right without braking and trying to go to the middle. Shouldn't this be taken positive? I am trying to help myself and also others, who need to know its behavior.


Appreciate for the comments.

Thank you and my bad.

This is within the feeder lane where you take either 121 or 121 Business split which comes at an odd angle, where without the NoA the car doesn't know which one leads to 121 highway.

I was taking exception to the phrases 'never to be trusted', and 'need to baby sit all the time'. This is obviously a decision point, and unless the lines clearly favor one split over the other, you are going to help AP make the decision, or simply cross that point yourself.