AP2 minor accident

[alcibiades]

Except the car should distinguish between a kid and a pole, and should trigger AEB for a kid; whereas there might not be programming logic as to what to do when you're approaching a pole and/or an unrecognized object.

There should be such logic. Is this a version of "the beta excuse"? I mean, how hard is it to know that your EAP package ought to include the ability to detect common construction items? Why shouldn't we expect AEB to trigger for an object? Think of the robot children!

Does it say in the notes that it cannot see these common road construction items? They're among the first things I'd expect EAP to see. Cars and other *sugar* commonly found on a road.

Tesla Vision can barely see lane lines. I don't think it can distinguish children. At some point EAP stops being a driver assistance package and becomes a driver challenge package.

 

[Max*]

There should be such logic. Is this a version of "the beta excuse"? I mean, how hard is it to know that your EAP package ought to include the ability to detect common construction items? Why shouldn't we expect AEB to trigger for an object? Think of the robot children!

Does it say in the notes that it cannot see these common road construction items? They're among the first things I'd expect EAP to see. Cars and other *sugar* commonly found on a road.

Tesla Vision can barely see lane lines. I don't think it can distinguish children. At some point EAP stops being a driver assistance package and becomes a driver challenge package.

I'm not defending anything or giving excuses for anything, I'm telling you though that you're trivializing the problem. This isn't one of those things where "it's just a few lines of code" to fix it.

Tesla could have released a fully developed product, or they could have released a *sugar* product which they've been slowly improving upon. They did the latter. Many bigger companies are waiting and going for the former. There's nothing constructive you can do about it.

Now to get back to you trivializing the problem -- Where does it stop though? What do you call a common object?
-Person
-Construction cone
--But wait, construction cones come in different shapes and sizes, have to program them all
-Tire debris
-Car parts
--But wait, these come in different shapes and sizes too
-Tree branches
-Etc.

Which of the above should AEB trigger on? One of them? All of them? What about a small tree branch, is it better to trigger AEB or is it better to run over it? etc.

There are things which AEB 100% has to trigger for - car and person. I don't know what AP2 AEB can or can not trigger for (does it stop for people like AP1 yet?). The rest goes in the gray area. It's a complicated problem. Tesla will likely get there, the question is when.

But insinuating that since Tesla can't stop for a construction cone that's the size of a kid, that the Tesla would also miss a kid (and you're right, you didn't go there, you just left those two data points right next to each other) is absolutely incorrect.

 

[slipnslider]

Construction zones are a mess. Sometimes my own highly advanced eyes and brain can't tell where the lanes are. I don't know how a computer and cameras will ever be able to do it, unless its GPS-learning based.

 

[oktane]

Construction zones are a mess. Sometimes my own highly advanced eyes and brain can't tell where the lanes are. I don't know how a computer and cameras will ever be able to do it, unless its GPS-learning based.

Then you need to stop driving. Just kidding I know you're exaggerating.

I can't wait for a real contender to Tesla's poor excuse for EAP. Please Audi or Mercedes bring us true L3 at highway speeds and add a sweet EV drive train so I can ditch this brand and car. I'm sure everyone will be happier, especially me. I have little hope for Tesla at this point.

 

[Joe F]

I feel bad for the OP. Hope it's repaired quickly, and glad no one was injured. Not sure how one fails to see construction ahead sighs, or cars merging lanes far down the road though. I guess stuff happens.

May I suggest Waze? It would (probably) have audibly warned you to the construction ahead, well in advance.

I do love threads like this though. The Tesla haters come out of the woodwork. Makes it easy to add them to the Ignore list since they add nothing constructive to the forum at all, IMHO.

 

[slipnslider]

May I suggest Waze? It would (probably) have audibly warned you to the construction ahead, well in advance.

I always annoyingly inform people that waze tracks your every movement and sells that data to people even when you aren't running the app. If you recognize the value of privacy in a democracy, you should consider a different app with more respect for privacy, and not reward companies who are digital stalkers which only encourages further erosion of privacy.

 

[davinci2017]

I feel bad for the OP. Hope it's repaired quickly, and glad no one was injured. Not sure how one fails to see construction ahead sighs, or cars merging lanes far down the road though. I guess stuff happens.

May I suggest Waze? It would (probably) have audibly warned you to the construction ahead, well in advance.

I do love threads like this though. The Tesla haters come out of the woodwork. Makes it easy to add them to the Ignore list since they add nothing constructive to the forum at all, IMHO.

Actually there was no construction going on, and there was no reduced speed limit. It was probably AFTER all the work was complete on maybe laying a new road that they left the dividers on for it to dry or something like that. If it was a proper reduced speed construction zone things would have been very different.

The issue at hand is that the it was all quite sudden and at/near speed limit. Also there were cars around me as well so it was not an empty road with lots of visibility ahead either. It was on Auto-steer all along and I was paying attention for the most part but I do think taking eyes off to look at the screen to change/look for something is quite normal and would expect almost anyone to do so.

My wife just told me she remembers it being slightly curvy as well and not a perfectly straight road so not sure if that made a difference either. I think I briefly took my eyes off to look at the screen to change a song or something trivial such as that but the timing was just about perfect and hence the incident. Not like I was snoozing or watching a movie

 

[oktane]

I always annoyingly inform people that waze tracks your every movement and sells that data to people even when you aren't running the app. If you recognize the value of privacy in a democracy, you should consider a different app with more respect for privacy, and not reward companies who are digital stalkers which only encourages further erosion of privacy.

He doesn't want to hear any views contrary to his own, as evidenced by his earlier post. Don't waste your breath, he wants to high-five himself and his friends on here. Keep living in fantasy land where Tesla's EAP is a wonderful feature to use, despite lulling drivers into a false sense of security and decreasing safety. Perhaps other car makers are smart in skipping L2 and only releasing AP when L3 is perfected.

 

[Max*]

He doesn't want to hear any views contrary to his own, as evidenced by his earlier post. Don't waste your breath, he wants to high-five himself and his friends on here.

You forgot to mention his passive aggressive comment about putting all the "Tesla haters" on ignore.

 

[davinci2017]

Which of the above should AEB trigger on? One of them? All of them? What about a small tree branch, is it better to trigger AEB or is it better to run over it? etc.

I agree this is a complex problem. But to me when the speed for auto-steer has been increased to 80+mph, I think Road hazard cones/poles high visbility stuff should get priority and to me I sort of expect that to work. People and cars go without saying and the system shouldn't even be enabled without those, but I think for it to be reasonably safe for broad use at high speed freeways, it should be able to see these high visibility markers especially as they are all brightly colored a certain way with reflectors. I was surprised that this was not the case.

Tire debris, plants trees, things that fall off trucks etc are quite random and not as essential as these IMHO, road hazard cones and poles though are REALLY common and I dont think its fair to put those in the same bucket.

 

[Max*]

it should be able to see these high visibility markers especially as they are all brightly colored a certain way with reflectors

The rest of your comment is fair, I'm not saying it shouldn't have been included, I'm saying it's not trivial. That was all.

As for this - the camera is not color (I believe it was BW+red channel, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong). The fact that it's bright orange doesn't make it "easier" to distinguish for the car in this case. Only for a person.

 

[Matias]

We are 6-7 months away from Elon's coast to coast FSD hands free -demo...

 

[Tech_Guy]

Autopilot tells you to keep your hands on the wheel and stay alert... its part of the agreement when you enable it on the touchscreen!

Heres some examples of teslas that crashed on autopilot.
Here in the construction zone lines arnt always re drawn but either way its the drivers fault for not paying attention or keeping hands on the wheel.

Here another common accident type on autopilot, stationary objects and drivers not paying attention.

This can also happen when another car moves over from in front of you revealing a stopped car that you will then crash into if you don't take over... Again driver not paying attention...

 

[davinci2017]

Autopilot tells you to keep your hands on the wheel and stay alert... its part of the agreement when you enable it on the touchscreen

Heres some examples of teslas that crashed on autopilot.

Uhhh... ok thanks?

 

[feslatan]

Because the final FSD code is completing final validation and will be released in December 2016. Because of the 8 cameras. Because the car apparently can already detect pedestrians, road signs, lanes, brush, and drive itself around in the parking lot and on city streets. You mean that was just a scam when the car will be oblivious to what other cars are doing and won't see a 6 ft construction cone or merging lanes?

Who told you FSD was completing final validation in Dec 2016? You're confusing FSD with EAP.

 

[Tech_Guy]

Im glad your ok just don't think Tesla properly goes over the limitations with new owners thus my examples above..Sorry about your incident

Heres my in car agreement for Autopilot 1 I don't know if this disclaimer has changed or not in your car... I would guess no. Also OBVIOUSLY it does remind you to keep your hands on the wheel every time you turn autopilot on...
View media item 115507

 

[alcibiades]

I'm not defending anything or giving excuses for anything, I'm telling you though that you're trivializing the problem. This isn't one of those things where "it's just a few lines of code" to fix it.

Tesla could have released a fully developed product, or they could have released a *sugar* product which they've been slowly improving upon. They did the latter. Many bigger companies are waiting and going for the former. There's nothing constructive you can do about it.

Now to get back to you trivializing the problem -- Where does it stop though? What do you call a common object?
-Person
-Construction cone
--But wait, construction cones come in different shapes and sizes, have to program them all
-Tire debris
-Car parts
--But wait, these come in different shapes and sizes too
-Tree branches
-Etc.

Which of the above should AEB trigger on? One of them? All of them? What about a small tree branch, is it better to trigger AEB or is it better to run over it? etc.

There are things which AEB 100% has to trigger for - car and person. I don't know what AP2 AEB can or can not trigger for (does it stop for people like AP1 yet?). The rest goes in the gray area. It's a complicated problem. Tesla will likely get there, the question is when.

But insinuating that since Tesla can't stop for a construction cone that's the size of a kid, that the Tesla would also miss a kid (and you're right, you didn't go there, you just left those two data points right next to each other) is absolutely incorrect.

I'm fairly certain the Tesla would miss seeing a kid and run the child over. So if you mistook me for merely insinuating that which I meant to assert, I'm sorry.

The OPs scenario is one that Tesla needs to address. Explain why the construction object was hit, but why a child would not be. Show us an HW2 car stop for a child. A rushed out release with a hidden indicator of a significant mph restriction to combat bad press doesn't suggest Tesla feels good about AEB. And here we have a car running stuff over and not having the breaks engage even after contact.

I'm not trivializing the difficulty in making EAP actually, you know, work (December 2016 LOL). It is hard. Tesla shouldn't have misled people into thinking HW2 was about to be done and cars would have standard safety features, when the software was nowhere even close. I think you are in fact trivializing the danger in a system that cannot reliably detect all of those things. Having an expectation that EAP and AEB work in easily foreseeable circumstances (not edge cases) is reasonable. Tweaking is around the edge cases. Tesla still can't do the obvious. To claim "everything that isn't a car is a grey area" is to beg the question.

So yeah, Autonomous driving (L2+) is hard to do. But I heard it was a solved problem. I just didn't think the solution was "make sure the roads are ****ing empty."

 

[OilSucks]

My reliance on AP2 during my Memorial day vacation backfired on my way back. Was on 101-N central coast area, on the right most lane with AP2 under speed limit behind a vehicle that was slower. Turns out the right lane was closed ahead, and I didnt catch a sign in advance. The vehicle in front pulled to the left last second and the car attempted to catch up back to speed limit, AP2 didn't see Lane delineator poles at all and just chugged through, by the time I noticed and could take over and swerve out it was too late, got hit by a couple of them.

Wait.... You chugged through them? You weren't paying enough attention to the road to put your foot on the brake/jerk the wheel to avoid colliding with them? It states clearly and plainly to keep your attention on the road, your hands on the wheel, and your focus on driving. Sounds to me like another user error turned blame game.

 

[Tech_Guy]

So yeah, Autonomous driving (L2+) is hard to do. But I heard it was a solved problem. I just didn't think the solution was "make sure the roads are ****ing empty."

Solved problem? Level 2 requires the driver to SOLVE problems level 2 is a drivers assistant not replacement....

Level 0: This one is pretty basic. The driver (human) controls it all: steering, brakes, throttle, power. It's what you've been doing all along.


Level 1: This driver-assistance level means that most functions are still controlled by the driver, but a specific function (like steering or accelerating) can be done automatically by the car.

Level 2: In level 2, at least one driver assistance system of "both steering and acceleration/ deceleration using information about the driving environment" is automated, like cruise control and lane-centering. It means that the "driver is disengaged from physically operating the vehicle by having his or her hands off the steering wheel AND foot off pedal at the same time," according to the SAE. The driver must still always be ready to take control of the vehicle, however.

Level 3: Drivers are still necessary in level 3 cars, but are able to completely shift "safety-critical functions" to the vehicle, under certain traffic or environmental conditions. It means that the driver is still present and will intervene if necessary, but is not required to monitor the situation in the same way it does for the previous levels. Jim McBride, autonomous vehicles expert at Ford, said this is "the biggest demarcation is between Levels 3 and 4." He's focused on getting Ford straight to Level 4, since Level 3, which involves transferring control from car to human, can often pose difficulties. "We're not going to ask the driver to instantaneously intervene—that's not a fair proposition," McBride said.

Level 4: This is what is meant by "fully autonomous." Level 4 vehicles are "designed to perform all safety-critical driving functions and monitor roadway conditions for an entire trip." However, it's important to note that this is limited to the "operational design domain (ODD)" of the vehicle—meaning it does not cover every driving scenario.

Level 5: This refers to a fully-autonomous system that expects the vehicle's performance to equal that of a human driver, in every driving scenario—including extreme environments like dirt roads that are unlikely to be navigated by driverless vehicles in the near future.​

Quoted from Updated: Autonomous driving levels 0 to 5: Understanding the differences - TechRepublic

 

[stopcrazypp]

I'm not defending anything or giving excuses for anything, I'm telling you though that you're trivializing the problem. This isn't one of those things where "it's just a few lines of code" to fix it.

Tesla could have released a fully developed product, or they could have released a *sugar* product which they've been slowly improving upon. They did the latter. Many bigger companies are waiting and going for the former. There's nothing constructive you can do about it.

Now to get back to you trivializing the problem -- Where does it stop though? What do you call a common object?
-Person
-Construction cone
--But wait, construction cones come in different shapes and sizes, have to program them all
-Tire debris
-Car parts
--But wait, these come in different shapes and sizes too
-Tree branches
-Etc.

Which of the above should AEB trigger on? One of them? All of them? What about a small tree branch, is it better to trigger AEB or is it better to run over it? etc.

There are things which AEB 100% has to trigger for - car and person. I don't know what AP2 AEB can or can not trigger for (does it stop for people like AP1 yet?). The rest goes in the gray area. It's a complicated problem. Tesla will likely get there, the question is when.

But insinuating that since Tesla can't stop for a construction cone that's the size of a kid, that the Tesla would also miss a kid (and you're right, you didn't go there, you just left those two data points right next to each other) is absolutely incorrect.

Agree so much on this. AEB in general is designed for vehicles. The ones with cameras can additionally trigger for people. There are no other requirements for other objects (nor is AEB tested for those by the safety testing groups like NCAP or IIHS).

In the manual, the only detectable items for AEB pointed out are: "vehicle, motorcycle, bicycle, or pedestrian".

Also AEB is designed only to brake if collision was unavoidable. In this case the collision was avoidable (the driver only needed to steer).