Aptera News

[daniel]

I agree that it looked really cool. And as I said I really wanted one. It certainly would have been a tremendous improvement over my Zap Xebra. I thought having windows that didn't open was a huge mistake. What do you do when a cop pulls you over and says "Stay in the car and open your window"? "Sorry officer. The windows don't open. But if you'll stand back I can open the door." And a ventilation fan is just no substitute for an open window. At highway speeds you're better off with the windows closed. On residential roads I like to open the window if it's not too hot. And having a rear-view camera instead of mirrors was a dreadful idea. If the camera fails in my car, I can still see out the back via the mirror. If the camera failed in an Aptera, you are totally blind out the back. And as I might have already said, a strong, rigid cabin is not how you make a car safe. Crumple zones are how you make a car safe.

I just think they made a lot of design choices that would have bitten them in the butt if they'd actually managed to put the car on the market.

And for all that, I still really wanted one! At this point I think the only way it could succeed is if they take the cabin off it entirely and make it an electric three-wheel motorcycle. Three-wheel motorcycles are a real thing and there could be a market for an electric one.

 

[KarenRei]

a strong, rigid cabin is not how you make a car safe. Crumple zones are how you make a car safe.

This isn't exactly right. A safe car is supposed to have two very different elements. There's supposed to be a crumple zone which, yes, crumples. But there's also supposed to be a passenger safety cell, and it's not supposed to give at all.

 

[doug]

This isn't exactly right. A safe car is supposed to have two very different elements. There's supposed to be a crumple zone which, yes, crumples. But there's also supposed to be a passenger safety cell, and it's not supposed to give at all.

By this description (and from the unfortunate crash videos) the original designs seemed to be all safety cell.

However, this new rendering seems to suggest a front crumple zone.

 

[doug]

Btw, if you haven't already seen it, this video is rather over the top:

As if the Nissan Leaf or Tesla didn't happen in the interim.

 

[daniel]

Btw, if you haven't already seen it, this video is rather over the top:

As if the Nissan Leaf or Tesla didn't happen in the interim.

The narrator is soooooo happy to "now get a chance to drive" an Aptera. Except that, he doesn't have that chance yet, because it doesn't exist yet. A concept that was revolutionary and cutting edge when they blew it the first time, is now a concept for a niche vehicle, less safe than a Tesla, less practical than a Leaf, too small for most people, too funny-looking for many others, and probably lacking a big enough potential market to make it economically feasible to mass produce, and without mass production it will be very expensive if they ever do build it.

But they will probably find enough investors that for a while they can pay themselves comfortable salaries while they try to solve the problems they couldn't solve before.

But take the top off and make it a three-wheel motorcycle and I might buy one, if the price is reasonable. An electric trike would be cool. I hate the noise that motorcycles make, and I'd be too scared to get on anything with just two wheels. This could solve both issues. Yep, I want an Aptera open trike. The hot Maui wind in my hair. Do you suppose they'd let me join a motorcycle gang if I don't have any tattoos?

 

[KarenRei]

The narrator is soooooo happy to "now get a chance to drive" an Aptera. Except that, he doesn't have that chance yet, because it doesn't exist yet. A concept that was revolutionary and cutting edge when they blew it the first time, is now a concept for a niche vehicle, less safe than a Tesla, less practical than a Leaf, too small for most people, too funny-looking for many others, and probably lacking a big enough potential market to make it economically feasible to mass produce, and without mass production it will be very expensive if they ever do build it.

But they will probably find enough investors that for a while they can pay themselves comfortable salaries...

Seriously, back off here with this. Steve and Chris took only small salaries at Aptera, putting themselves at risk. It was Paul's team that came in - against the wishes of the initial team, but forced on them by Idealab - and took huge salaries until the company went bankrupt (Paul's salary was ~$1m/yr, which is nonsensically high for a relatively small startup). Steve and Chris are true believers in the concept. And I have no reason whatsoever to doubt that they still are. Steve was building a concept in his garage out of plywood before the company got going, for crying out loud.

My reaction to this whole thing is just to be saddened. It just digs up what could have been in a different timeline, but wasn't. I feel bad for them. I worry that they didn't do sufficient market research before re-launching to see if the interest was still there. I worry for Steve and Chris in this. They lost so much last time - in addition to the personal toll**. I don't want to see it happen again. Yet I just don't know how they're supposed to succeed now, in this new and radically different EV environment.

** - The internal strife that tore the company up was terrible. Including among countless other things, Paul firing Trisha (Steve's wife) by telephone while she was in the hospital being treated for cervical cancer.

 

[KarenRei]

I somewhat wonder if they didn't fully get that the big draw wasn't "efficiency for efficiency's sake", but "efficiency for what it can do for an EV". E.g. range, charge times, etc etc on much cheaper hardware, which back then was so utterly critical - more than enough to compensate for reduced seating, buying from a startup, very unusual styling, etc for many people. Efficiency still matters, a lot (it's one of Teslas big advantages over its competitors) - but just not to the degree anymore as to demand such large sacrifices.

There was one point during the "Old Aptera" period where Aptera was seriously looking into building gas and diesel versions. It's as if it was the "efficiency for efficiency's sake" aspect that mattered most to them rather than the "what efficiency does for an EV" aspect.

And even after saying all this, I still think it's a beautiful vehicle, and love how extreme they took the streamlining, and everything it could let them achieve. But I just can't see it in today's market. Even for me. It's weird that seeing something that you really loved that was killed prematurely (leaving you really bitter)... and then it comes back to the market... can make you sad. But that's exactly what this does... and it's a weird feeling.

(And for the record: Apteras have always had crumple zones. They were designed with then-state-of-the-art FEM software).

 

[doug]

Well despite my not expecting much to come out of this, I think the current goals are fairly modest. They're going the crowd funding route, which should tell them something about interest, and the purpose of the funding is only for a few prototypes. I suppose they'll assess after that.

 

[daniel]

I stand corrected on the salaries that Steve and Chris are likely to take with the new startup. I apologize for lumping them together with the folks who succeeded them.

There's certainly a market for small cars, but it's a small market, with the trend toward larger and larger cars. (My Model 3 is much bigger than I want.) And with the popular (mis)conception that large cars are safer. But a very small car on a road that's choked with huge SUVs faces real problems for safety. I always thought the Aptera was odd looking, and I think I'm in the majority there. I'd have bought one because I was so desperate for an electric car that I didn't care what it looked like.

I knew a guy who was into DIY EV conversions. After the Leaf came out and you could buy a cheaper and more reliable EV with more range than anything you could convert at home, this guy couldn't admit to himself that the movement he was a small part of had gone mainstream and pushed him out. That's how I feel about Aptera. If nothing else they created enthusiasm for electric cars, but now the pioneers have been left behind. Aptera and Tango and Xebra and Zenn are footnotes on the road that led to Tesla and the Leaf. I think Rick Woodbury is still working on the Tango, all these years later. And now these guys trying to revive the Aptera. All these people are living in the past, when they were in the forefront of a movement. As Karen says, it's sad.