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Are these operating modes possible?

MorrisonHiker

S 100D 2021.4.18.2
Mar 8, 2015
9,836
9,207
Colorado
Here is what is going on in balanced for me now. My reserve is at 10%. But, now when I get up, the battery at about 40%, is no longer running the house, the grid is! So, it has enough smarts to know what it thinks it needs to charge back to 100% before 3, rather than go to reserve. Pretty cool
Ours works exactly as we want it to in Balanced mode as well.

As I've mentioned in other threads, we like to be as self-powered as possible but since there isn't a "scheduled self-powered mode" and we are on ToU, we use Balanced mode with a shortened off-peak period. Our solar and Powerwalls power the house for all but about 2-3 hours a day. While our off-peak time starts at 7 pm, we program it in the app to start at 3 am. This allows the Powerwalls to power the house until 3 am, when we have the first Tesla scheduled to charge. At 3 am, the Powerwalls immediately stop discharging and the first Tesla is typically charged entirely from the grid. If our Powerwalls hit the reserve overnight, then they aren't used to power the house during the off-peak morning hours. However, if the Powerwalls aren't close to the reserve then the system will combine gradually power from the grid and Powerwalls to complete charging that car and powering the house. We have a second Tesla that starts charging at 5:45 am and it uses a small amount of grid energy, some Powerwall energy and then eventually solar as the sun comes up. If weather cooperates, our Powerwalls are nearly always charged up to 100% by the time our peak period starts at 3 pm. Things are working great for us as 99% of our grid usage is at non-peak rates and nearly all but a trickle is during those limited off-peak hours. The 1% from the grid during peak is mostly from when Storm Watch kicked in during peak and I didn't notice right away since notifications weren't being sent out for several months. I do wish there was an option to not have Storm Watch charge from peak (or to get a confirmation before beginning) as then our grid usage during peak would be even closer to 0%.

Screenshot_20210604-094345_Tesla.jpg
 
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RKCRLR

Member
Apr 13, 2020
426
167
Garden Valley, CA
Here is what is going on in balanced for me now. My reserve is at 10%. But, now when I get up, the battery at about 40%, is no longer running the house, the grid is! So, it has enough smarts to know what it thinks it needs to charge back to 100% before 3, rather than go to reserve. Pretty cool
If it works this way for me I'll be happy. I can tolerate a little discharging during off-peak. But if it does a lot of off-peak discharging or a lot of see sawing then I'll go back to Cost Saving.
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,658
491
auburn, ca
If it works this way for me I'll be happy. I can tolerate a little discharging during off-peak. But if it does a lot of off-peak discharging or a lot of see sawing then I'll go back to Cost Saving.
I have none of that stuff, yet :) It seems to have the smarts to use the battery as much as possible to stay off grid, BUT, has learned that it has to change based on my usage, solar patterns, etc when to use grid to the batteries still get back to 100% before 3. Like right now, my cooling batteries are at 71%, and the the grid is supplying some to house, with solar, and rest to batteries. When I was not using AC, the grid was basically never used. So again, doing its thing so batteries are always 100% charged at 3pm is all I want.
 
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RKCRLR

Member
Apr 13, 2020
426
167
Garden Valley, CA
Well, that didn't work either. I had Shoulder set to 4pm to 8pm and Peak at 8pm to 9pm running Balanced mode. In the morning things were going good. The solar was prioritized to house consumption with the excess charging the Powerwalls, and insignificant draw from the Powerwalls. Once the Powerwalls were charged the excess was sent to the grid. At 4pm the house was still being prioritized with the excess solar going to the grid. All good so far.

But once the solar couldn't keep up with the demand, supplemental power was coming from the grid and not the Powerwalls. I let this go on for about an hour before I intervened. I changed Peak to be from 4pm to 9pm. Power was still coming from the grid. It would only draw from the Powerwalls once I switched from Balanced to Cost Saving. I let this go on for a while. Then I tried switching back to Balanced and then it was drawing from the Powerwalls under Peak. I then removed Peak so that it became Shoulder period. Now it started recharging the Powerwalls with the excess solar. It then continued to charge the Powerwalls while drawing from the grid when the Solar couldn't keep up. It did this for a while and then finally figured out it should be drawing from the Powerwalls.

Should I expect Balanced mode to draw from the grid instead of the Powerwalls during the Shoulder period?
Should I expect Balanced mode to recharge the Powerwalls during Shoulder period?
 
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h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,658
491
auburn, ca
Well, that didn't work either. I had Shoulder set to 4pm to 8pm and Peak at 8pm to 9pm running Balanced mode. In the morning things were going good. The solar was prioritized to house consumption with the excess charging the Powerwalls, and insignificant draw from the Powerwalls. Once the Powerwalls were charged the excess was sent to the grid. At 4pm the house was still being prioritized with the excess solar going to the grid. All good so far.

But once the solar couldn't keep up with the demand, supplemental power was coming from the grid and not the Powerwalls. I let this go on for about an hour before I intervened. I changed Peak to be from 4pm to 9pm. Power was still coming from the grid. It would only draw from the Powerwalls once I switched from Balanced to Cost Saving. I let this go on for a while. Then I tried switching back to Balanced and then it was drawing from the Powerwalls under Peak. I then removed Peak so that it became Shoulder period. Now it started recharging the Powerwalls with the excess solar. It then continued to charge the Powerwalls while drawing from the grid when the Solar couldn't keep up. It did this for a while and then finally figured out it should be drawing from the Powerwalls.

Should I expect Balanced mode to draw from the grid instead of the Powerwalls during the Shoulder period?
Should I expect Balanced mode to recharge the Powerwalls during Shoulder period?
What I have learned is changes made need to last a while. Set it like mine, 3pm to 1am peak, leave on balanced for a few days and see what happens. The key test is does the logic make sure you batteries are charged to 100% before 3.
 
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RKCRLR

Member
Apr 13, 2020
426
167
Garden Valley, CA
What I have learned is changes made need to last a while. Set it like mine, 3pm to 1am peak, leave on balanced for a few days and see what happens. The key test is does the logic make sure you batteries are charged to 100% before 3.
I can try leaving it on Balanced mode for a few days to see what happens, but it is hard seeing it draw from the grid during peak period when I've got it set to Shoulder. If that's what I should expect then Balanced isn't the right mode for me.
In Cost Saving mode I had usually no problem getting the batteries to 100% before 3, it prioritized all solar to the batteries during off-peak. I just didn't like it not prioritizing the house.
 
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h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,658
491
auburn, ca
I can try leaving it on Balanced mode for a few days to see what happens, but it is hard seeing it draw from the grid during peak period when I've got it set to Shoulder. If that's what I should expect then Balanced isn't the right mode for me.
In Cost Saving mode I had usually no problem getting the batteries to 100% before 3, it prioritized all solar to the batteries during off-peak. I just didn't like it not prioritizing the house.
Something does not seem right. I have never seen the grid get pulled during peak!!! Again, get rid of shoulder!!!! Just have peak and non peak!!!! Otherwise you are NOT trying what is working for me.
 

RKCRLR

Member
Apr 13, 2020
426
167
Garden Valley, CA
Something does not seem right. I have never seen the grid get pulled during peak!!! Again, get rid of shoulder!!!! Just have peak and non peak!!!! Otherwise you are NOT trying what is working for me.
Getting rid of shoulder would defeat the whole reason for me to use Balanced. I want to prioritize solar going to the house with the excess going to the grid during peak hours. My understanding is Peak will send all solar to the grid even in Balanced mode.

Another problem is that Balanced is significantly drawing from the Powerwalls during off-peak. Initially it stopped running off the Powerwalls at 9pm at ~75% SoC. But around 1:30am it started running off the Powerwalls again and this continued until this morning when solar started generating. The Powerwalls were drawn down to 56% SoC. I definitely don't want to run this much off the Powerwalls during off-peak.
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,658
491
auburn, ca
Getting rid of shoulder would defeat the whole reason for me to use Balanced. I want to prioritize solar going to the house with the excess going to the grid during peak hours. My understanding is Peak will send all solar to the grid even in Balanced mode.

Another problem is that Balanced is significantly drawing from the Powerwalls during off-peak. Initially it stopped running off the Powerwalls at 9pm at ~75% SoC. But around 1:30am it started running off the Powerwalls again and this continued until this morning when solar started generating. The Powerwalls were drawn down to 56% SoC. I definitely don't want to run this much off the Powerwalls during off-peak.
You just seem to want something that is not possible. I want to be off grid as much as possible. I want to send 100% of my solar back during peak for max NEM credit. I want to make sure batteries are 100% by 3pm when my peak hits. Batteries have not been allowed to go below 40%, even though my reserve is at 10%. We just have different objectives. Mine are max solar back to PGE at peak for max great. Be off the grid as much as possible. Balanced with my settings meets all my goals. Yours are different.
 
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RKCRLR

Member
Apr 13, 2020
426
167
Garden Valley, CA
You just seem to want something that is not possible. I want to be off grid as much as possible. I want to send 100% of my solar back during peak for max NEM credit. I want to make sure batteries are 100% by 3pm when my peak hits. Batteries have not been allowed to go below 40%, even though my reserve is at 10%. We just have different objectives. Mine are max solar back to PGE at peak for max great. Be off the grid as much as possible. Balanced with my settings meets all my goals. Yours are different.
Yes, I agree, we have different goals. My Powerwalls are mainly for backup. I only want to use my Powerwalls to the extent necessary to achieve a $0 true-up. It's just strange that there isn't an operating mode to achieve this without incurring unnecessary NBCs and cycles.
 

getakey

Active Member
Jan 28, 2020
1,319
429
95762
Yes, I agree, we have different goals. My Powerwalls are mainly for backup. I only want to use my Powerwalls to the extent necessary to achieve a $0 true-up. It's just strange that there isn't an operating mode to achieve this without incurring unnecessary NBCs and cycles.
I thought you were an over generator before PWs. Didn't you have a zero true-up as well?
 

RKCRLR

Member
Apr 13, 2020
426
167
Garden Valley, CA
I thought you were an over generator before PWs. Didn't you have a zero true-up as well?
My annual solar generation is slightly greater than my consumption in KWh. I was close to zero true-up before Powerwalls but then I then I got thrown into EV2A because of SGIP. So I'm just trying to use the Powerwalls enough to get back to zero true-up since my main concern is backup and I want to make the Powerwalls last as long as possible.
 

getakey

Active Member
Jan 28, 2020
1,319
429
95762
My annual solar generation is slightly greater than my consumption in KWh. I was close to zero true-up before Powerwalls but then I then I got thrown into EV2A because of SGIP. So I'm just trying to use the Powerwalls enough to get back to zero true-up since my main concern is backup and I want to make the Powerwalls last as long as possible.
got it
EV2A will be a big difference and PWs should help
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,355
6,061
Los Altos, CA
@RKCRLR You really need 4-9pm Peak rate period to be set as Peak in the Tesla app. What you do outside those hours is less critical. There is no way to prioritize the house during 4-9pm but never draw from the grid unless you change to Self Powered. If the provided TBC modes really don't work for you, then you will probably have to try one of the scripting solutions to programmatically change your Reserve level in Self Powered Mode.
 

RKCRLR

Member
Apr 13, 2020
426
167
Garden Valley, CA
@RKCRLR You really need 4-9pm Peak rate period to be set as Peak in the Tesla app. What you do outside those hours is less critical. There is no way to prioritize the house during 4-9pm but never draw from the grid unless you change to Self Powered. If the provided TBC modes really don't work for you, then you will probably have to try one of the scripting solutions to programmatically change your Reserve level in Self Powered Mode.
I think scripting solutions are a little beyond my skillset. If I did script something, it seems like the best way to accomplish my goals would be to change operating modes based on times of the day. I believe a combination of the different modes are capable of accomplishing what I want.

I'm probably going to wind up back on Cost Saving mode with Peak set from 4pm to 9pm. It seems like the least of the evils. If Cost Saving mode had a check box option to prioritize solar going to the house with excess recharging the Powerwalls during off-peak and the excess going to the grid during peak it would probably work well for me. Is there a formal way to request changes to the Tesla app?
 

RKCRLR

Member
Apr 13, 2020
426
167
Garden Valley, CA
Update to how my system is working with Shoulder set to 4-9pm and everything else off peak in Balanced mode.

Yesterday there was no power drawn from the grid during 4-9pm (good) but all solar was sent to the grid and none to the house (bad). After 9pm my house ran from the grid (good) until about 6:30 am and then starting drawing from the Powerwalls (bad). At about 7:30 it started sending excess solar to charge the Powerwalls (good) with a small amount being drawn from the grid (OK). At about 11:30 the Powerwalls were fully charged, house is running off solar with excess being sent to the grid (good).
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,355
6,061
Los Altos, CA
Update to how my system is working with Shoulder set to 4-9pm and everything else off peak in Balanced mode.

Yesterday there was no power drawn from the grid during 4-9pm (good) but all solar was sent to the grid and none to the house (bad). After 9pm my house ran from the grid (good) until about 6:30 am and then starting drawing from the Powerwalls (bad). At about 7:30 it started sending excess solar to charge the Powerwalls (good) with a small amount being drawn from the grid (OK). At about 11:30 the Powerwalls were fully charged, house is running off solar with excess being sent to the grid (good).
There is nothing you can do about All Solar going to the grid during Peak, short of flipping to Self Powered Mode. Maximum solar export during Peak is the optimum situation for the vast majority of people. The only time you don't want this in California is if you cannot monetize the dollar credits at true-up and would rather save the energy to avoid NBCs. If that's the case, then you should not complain about discharge during Off-Peak around sunrise because it's also saving you NBCs.
 
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RKCRLR

Member
Apr 13, 2020
426
167
Garden Valley, CA
There is nothing you can do about All Solar going to the grid during Peak, short of flipping to Self Powered Mode. Maximum solar export during Peak is the optimum situation for the vast majority of people. The only time you don't want this in California is if you cannot monetize the dollar credits at true-up and would rather save the energy to avoid NBCs. If that's the case, then you should not complain about discharge during Off-Peak around sunrise because it's also saving you NBCs.
A few people have said that the Shoulder period in Balanced mode will prioritize the house and send excess solar to the grid so that is why I'm trying it.

Its not just the NBCs I'm trying to reduce, I'm also trying minimize unnecessary cycles on the Powerwalls.
 

arnolddeleon

Supporting Member
Jul 21, 2012
838
909
SF Bay Area
A few people have said that the Shoulder period in Balanced mode will prioritize the house and send excess solar to the grid so that is why I'm trying it.

Its not just the NBCs I'm trying to reduce, I'm also trying minimize unnecessary cycles on the Powerwalls.
That's the behavior that I see in balanced. Unfortunately my usage history, PV size and batteries are also factor and are not the same as yours. I think the challenge for you is how to prevent discharging during off peak.

I think the variables you can tweak are your reserve and the hours of part peak and off peak. The only reason to have peak are for hours that you don't have any solar production (so possibly 8 to 9 pm and more as the the season changes) .

We have the complication of the system "smarts". I have a guess on why you saw the behavior that you saw. Your Powerwall was full of "off peak" energy so "it saw" an opportunity to "save money" by using off setting the shoulder/park peak with it and selling all the solar the higher shoulder rates. "It" believe it would still have enough energy to meet the part peak during the hours where there is no production and not hit the reserve. We want the system to hold that energy. Raising the reserve would do that but I think there is another thing to try first.

The next experiment I would run if I was in your shoes is extended part peak/shoulder to earlier in the day to possibly all way of making most of the day shoulder. This will almost certainly prevent off peak discharging. I suspect this will also prevent discharging during the part peak where there is solar happening.

So in summary try this:

Balanced
Part peak: 8:00 am to 9:00 pm
Off peak: all others
 

getakey

Active Member
Jan 28, 2020
1,319
429
95762
another school of thought would be to increase cycles on the PWs increasing the probability of getting replacements under warranty ;)

can't you just control cycles using Reserve settings?
 
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