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Like most here I have read and re-read the demand arguments for years. Alas though, especially as of today, I think you have to go with the simplest explanation. If demand was through the roof, you do not cut a price. It is pretty straight forward, and to myself only gets complex when people start adding in 'academic-only' arguments for why this is a good thing.

Demand was, and is, obviously and issue.

Why is demand an issue? Right time, wrong model.

I have been saying it for literally five years or more...sedan over CUV was a mistake, and I really hope not a catastrophic one. ITesla with the Y, still has a chance to be the first small size affordable electric SUV on the market, but Mercedes will beat them to market (q4 this year), just probably not beat them on price. The Kia Niro, and Soul, as well as Hyundai Kona are presumably smaller than the Y will be. Not sure when the e-tron or XC 40 are coming out, and if they will be produced in major numbers to start.

I did get a call today from Tesla to tell me about the announcement today (as I still have a reservation in) The person was really nice. He did note stores in Canada will remain open and are not affected. Whether this is true or not who knows.

Supposedly 80 per cent of sales were on-line. I wonder how many though involved a visit to the store at some point however.

I do think this goes a long way to explaining the exodus of 'higher ups'.

As musk said before, at one point they had 'single-digit' weeks to turn things around before bankruptcy. I think he will be using a similar quote again in the future when looking back at today.

Why is Tesla so hung up on the 35 000 price point? To live up to their word? They have no problem wishy-washing numbers on their configuration page where the true price is buried at the bottom (no cost savings if you go from electric to electric Tesla!), yet are so bent on getting to 35k they are shuddering all their stores. Wishy wash the 35!

As with the obvious demand issues reflected by price cuts, i do find TMC spinning this off in the best possible light. While good for my doubting mind (still all-in) I'm not sure if its good for objectivity. I cannot see how this is a good thing. Yes it will spur short term demand, but then what? Tesla energy? Solar Roof? Same old story for years, and definitely feeling a bit nervous and shaken today.
 
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I have been saying it for literally five years or more...sedan over CUV was a mistake, and I really hope not a catastrophic one. ITesla with the Y, still has a chance to be the first small size affordable electric SUV on the market, but Mercedes will beat them to market (q4 this year), just probably not beat them on price. The Kia Niro, and Soul, as well as Hyundai Kona are presumably smaller than the Y will be. Not sure when the e-tron or XC 40 are coming out, and if they will be produced in major numbers to start.

The Y will have more improvements, both itself and in manufacturing, than the 3 due to coming after it. If the Y will be the high volume vehicle, then Tesla is better off having Y second to get those improvements into the highest demand/ production vehicle.
 
Demand was, and is, obviously and issue.

Why is demand an issue? Right time, wrong model.

I have been saying it for literally five years or more...sedan over CUV was a mistake, and I really hope not a catastrophic one. ITesla with the Y, still has a chance to be the first small size affordable electric SUV on the market, but Mercedes will beat them to market (q4 this year), just probably not beat them on price. The Kia Niro, and Soul, as well as Hyundai Kona are presumably smaller than the Y will be. Not sure when the e-tron or XC 40 are coming out, and if they will be produced in major numbers to start.

Tesla started work on the Model 3 first before it was clear sedans were in terminal decline in North America. Worldwide they sell better than in North America. If Tesla had known that sedans were dying in the US, they might have killed the Model 3 and went directly to the Y, but by the time it was clear the sedan was dying, the Model 3 was well along and they couldn't afford to kill the program.

The Y will be built on the 3 platform. It won't be a small CUV, more a mid-sized. Mercedes might beat Tesla to market, but if the recent track record of other European car makers is any guide, it will be available in small numbers, at high prices, with dismal range despite a large battery pack. The iPace is probably about the size of the Model Y.

It will probably be popular with those who want the luxury of a Mercedes, but that's a limited market. The success of the Model S in the luxury niche showed there were a lot of people out there who could afford a Mercedes or BMW, but drove something much more humble until something they really wanted (the S) came along.

I have been saying since the Model 3 was announced that the real competition for the 3 (what it will be cross shopped against) won't be the Bolt, or Leaf, or the BMW 3 Series, it will be the Camry, Corolla, and Accord. Data released by Tesla last year showed that a lot of Accords, Corollas, and Civics were turned in for Model 3s. The Model Y will put a similar dent in the mid-sized family CUV market.

Ultimately Tesla is gunning for the family car market. That's where the real volumes are.

I did get a call today from Tesla to tell me about the announcement today (as I still have a reservation in) The person was really nice. He did note stores in Canada will remain open and are not affected. Whether this is true or not who knows.

Supposedly 80 per cent of sales were on-line. I wonder how many though involved a visit to the store at some point however.

Yes, I ordered online, but only after a store visit and two test drives, one with a forum member.

I do think this goes a long way to explaining the exodus of 'higher ups'.

As musk said before, at one point they had 'single-digit' weeks to turn things around before bankruptcy. I think he will be using a similar quote again in the future when looking back at today.

Why is Tesla so hung up on the 35 000 price point? To live up to their word? They have no problem wishy-washing numbers on their configuration page where the true price is buried at the bottom (no cost savings if you go from electric to electric Tesla!), yet are so bent on getting to 35k they are shuddering all their stores. Wishy wash the 35!

I think it's to shut up the critics. Or at least try to shut them up.

As with the obvious demand issues reflected by price cuts, i do find TMC spinning this off in the best possible light. While good for my doubting mind (still all-in) I'm not sure if its good for objectivity. I cannot see how this is a good thing. Yes it will spur short term demand, but then what? Tesla energy? Solar Roof? Same old story for years, and definitely feeling a bit nervous and shaken today.

As @neroden said above, we knew there was going to be a post incentive hangover, and this quarter is usually the lowest volume of the year. Demand may be softening a little, but I'm not surprised at the price cuts.

The Model 3 is being rolled out right now in the right hand drive international market and there is a fair bit of demand there to fill. Europeans have been saying the M3 is a better size for Europe and sedans are still more popular there than they are in North America. I think North American sales are going to be poor this year, but China and European sales should be close in strength to US sales last year.

By the time the demand for the M3 begins to saturate, the MY will be going into production. I would not be surprised if Tesla decides to convert 1 or more lines at the main factory to making MYs if demand for the Y is much more than the 3. The two cars will probably share more parts than the S and X did which would help retooling lines to make one or the other.

Another thing Tesla could do to spur demand for the S and 3 if sedan sales continue to decline is redesign the backend and offer a wagon version, or what the British call a shooting brake. Someone in the UK redid a Model S with a fiberglass shell to make it a wagon and the car became much more practical for hauling. It also had the added benefit of better backseat headroom. A factory option with a wagon version would not be as popular in North America, but would probably sell in other parts of the world where the wagon doesn't have the stigma the wagon has here. And it might catch on here with a niche like the Subaru Outback.

I am a bit concerned about Tesla's future. They really need a COO who can capture the essence of Elon's ideas and make them work effectively. Throughout its history Tesla has lurched from one crisis to another and there is nobody high up looking ahead and trying to anticipate and avoid the crisis before they happen.

My SO who has developed ADD as an adult (adverse reaction to Versed) and has self taught herself a lot about it convinced Elon has ADD. From what she's told me of the symptoms, I think she's right. That's why the cars and his office are so spartan. Many people with ADD and drive to succeed end up creating very spartan spaces for themselves to eliminate sources of distraction. He also seems to be time blind, another possible symptom. The inability to manage to see crisis coming and make plans to avoid them is one I've seen first hand. There is an ability to spot crisis points, and an awareness that something could become a problem, but once the plan is engaged so much effort goes into just getting to the next step that the crisis becomes "tomorrow's problem".

Tim Cook at Apple was the COO who captured and smoothed out the crisis at Apple as Steve Jobs spazzed out about whatever the latest project was. Cook didn't have Jobs' vision, but he did have the organizational skills to make sure things happened with few mishaps.

SpaceX is a bit of an apples and oranges comparison to Tesla because it's not publicly held, they don't mass produce anything, and their mission is different, but Gwynne Shotwell keeps everything running smoothly, or as smoothly as possible for a company with Elon at the helm. If Tesla had someone like Shotwell or Cook who Elon could trust enough to do their job, the company would be much more efficient and not known for chaos.

Logistics is way underrated and its far from sexy, but ultimately logistics can make or break any endeavor.
 
I think the biggest sign that demand softened quicker than Musk/Tesla expected and that this was a relatively quick pivot is that Musk publicly not that long ago (Q4 call) said SR was gonna come in the middle of 2019. he didnt hint at anything about closing stores or what not. furthermore Tesla actually opened a bunch of stores in late 2018. they were on a retail push. they opened 11 stores the week of December 10 alone. Tesla Expands U.S. Store Network By 10% In Just One Week

I think Tesla felt a need to lower price because orders were just not keeping up with production and the least bad option to do so was another round of layoffs basically. what's concerning for me as investor is the ping ponging from doing a retail push to decide basically two months later you are leaving retail totally.
 
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And you've been wrong every single time and will continue to be every single time. Cost is the ultimate limit to demand and you mistakenly think a more expensive vehicle with less range would increase demand. It won't.

Cost might be the ultimate limit, but not the only limit. If you were right the Ford Fiesta would be selling like hot cakes!

Range is also not the only factor. We use our EV for city only. Barely touch the range.

Let’s bet. When both are at full production I think the y will outsell the 3. By your argument should be the 3. Care to wager?
 
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Tesla started work on the Model 3 first before it was clear sedans were in terminal decline in North America. Worldwide they sell better than in North America. If Tesla had known that sedans were dying in the US, they might have killed the Model 3 and went directly to the Y, but by the time it was clear the sedan was dying, the Model 3 was well along and they couldn't afford to kill the program.

The Y will be built on the 3 platform. It won't be a small CUV, more a mid-sized. Mercedes might beat Tesla to market, but if the recent track record of other European car makers is any guide, it will be available in small numbers, at high prices, with dismal range despite a large battery pack. The iPace is probably about the size of the Model Y.

It will probably be popular with those who want the luxury of a Mercedes, but that's a limited market. The success of the Model S in the luxury niche showed there were a lot of people out there who could afford a Mercedes or BMW, but drove something much more humble until something they really wanted (the S) came along.

I have been saying since the Model 3 was announced that the real competition for the 3 (what it will be cross shopped against) won't be the Bolt, or Leaf, or the BMW 3 Series, it will be the Camry, Corolla, and Accord. Data released by Tesla last year showed that a lot of Accords, Corollas, and Civics were turned in for Model 3s. The Model Y will put a similar dent in the mid-sized family CUV market.

Ultimately Tesla is gunning for the family car market. That's where the real volumes are.



Yes, I ordered online, but only after a store visit and two test drives, one with a forum member.



I think it's to shut up the critics. Or at least try to shut them up.



As @neroden said above, we knew there was going to be a post incentive hangover, and this quarter is usually the lowest volume of the year. Demand may be softening a little, but I'm not surprised at the price cuts.

The Model 3 is being rolled out right now in the right hand drive international market and there is a fair bit of demand there to fill. Europeans have been saying the M3 is a better size for Europe and sedans are still more popular there than they are in North America. I think North American sales are going to be poor this year, but China and European sales should be close in strength to US sales last year.

By the time the demand for the M3 begins to saturate, the MY will be going into production. I would not be surprised if Tesla decides to convert 1 or more lines at the main factory to making MYs if demand for the Y is much more than the 3. The two cars will probably share more parts than the S and X did which would help retooling lines to make one or the other.

Another thing Tesla could do to spur demand for the S and 3 if sedan sales continue to decline is redesign the backend and offer a wagon version, or what the British call a shooting brake. Someone in the UK redid a Model S with a fiberglass shell to make it a wagon and the car became much more practical for hauling. It also had the added benefit of better backseat headroom. A factory option with a wagon version would not be as popular in North America, but would probably sell in other parts of the world where the wagon doesn't have the stigma the wagon has here. And it might catch on here with a niche like the Subaru Outback.

I am a bit concerned about Tesla's future. They really need a COO who can capture the essence of Elon's ideas and make them work effectively. Throughout its history Tesla has lurched from one crisis to another and there is nobody high up looking ahead and trying to anticipate and avoid the crisis before they happen.

My SO who has developed ADD as an adult (adverse reaction to Versed) and has self taught herself a lot about it convinced Elon has ADD. From what she's told me of the symptoms, I think she's right. That's why the cars and his office are so spartan. Many people with ADD and drive to succeed end up creating very spartan spaces for themselves to eliminate sources of distraction. He also seems to be time blind, another possible symptom. The inability to manage to see crisis coming and make plans to avoid them is one I've seen first hand. There is an ability to spot crisis points, and an awareness that something could become a problem, but once the plan is engaged so much effort goes into just getting to the next step that the crisis becomes "tomorrow's problem".

Tim Cook at Apple was the COO who captured and smoothed out the crisis at Apple as Steve Jobs spazzed out about whatever the latest project was. Cook didn't have Jobs' vision, but he did have the organizational skills to make sure things happened with few mishaps.

SpaceX is a bit of an apples and oranges comparison to Tesla because it's not publicly held, they don't mass produce anything, and their mission is different, but Gwynne Shotwell keeps everything running smoothly, or as smoothly as possible for a company with Elon at the helm. If Tesla had someone like Shotwell or Cook who Elon could trust enough to do their job, the company would be much more efficient and not known for chaos.

Logistics is way underrated and its far from sexy, but ultimately logistics can make or break any endeavor.

Thanks for the reply. I agree with nearly everything...especially would love a shooting brake! I have a z3 m coupe. The only part I disagree with is the timeline of SUV to car sales. Definitely in Canada the shift..probably due to greater need for all wheel drive vehicles occurred sooner.
 
Here's the delivery times for Model 3 for California delivery (New York is same). I hate to sound bearish, which I'm not, but Model 3 orders in the U.S. must have fallen off a cliff in Q1 2019. Thus, the need for drastic price cuts.


View attachment 381760
Looks like they want to score some end of quarter deliveries for which California and North Ametica generally play a unique logistical role.

If demand creation were a problem, I don't think Tesla would be scaling back sales centers.

The $35k price point has not been cut. Cutting other price points may be necessary to assure a highly profitable distribution of sales across all model variants. Even the creation of the SR+ illustrates Tesla's appetite to upsell from the SR.

Is any of this truly unexpected? They playbook was always to move down market. I submit this is what that looks like. Destiny, not desperation.
 
I think the biggest sign that demand softened quicker than Musk/Tesla expected and that this was a relatively quick pivot is that Musk publicly not that long ago (Q4 call) said SR was gonna come in the middle of 2019. he didnt hint at anything about closing stores or what not. furthermore Tesla actually opened a bunch of stores in late 2018. they were on a retail push. they opened 11 stores the week of December 10 alone. Tesla Expands U.S. Store Network By 10% In Just One Week

I think Tesla felt a need to lower price because orders were just not keeping up with production and the least bad option to do so was another round of layoffs basically. what's concerning for me as investor is the ping ponging from doing a retail push to decide basically two months later you are leaving retail totally.
I think you're right on the point.
However, taking it from there, I think Elon's value (and his team) could be seen in ability to pivot, and pivot dramatically in incredible short amount of time. I am otherwise quite disillusioned with Elon, so this praise should count for something.
And further, while I share concerns, just this ability of the company to turn on the dime makes me comfortable they'll make it and make it big. If Elon was more emphatic, or company was in a country where it's harder to lay-off people, it may have been different story.
However:
- strength of the brand that allows them 1. to sell with little physical footprint, and 2. hire great talent,
- determined and ruthless nature of management,
- strong mission,
- already great talent onboard and
- great existing product and technology
makes me convinced Tesla can still outrun and outrace any regular competitor (not sure about Waymo etc...) My investment theses has always relied on Tesla/Elon winning _somehow_ because that's who they are and that's their track record, not because I was invested in any piece of their existing strategy
 
I think the biggest sign that demand softened quicker than Musk/Tesla expected and that this was a relatively quick pivot is that Musk publicly not that long ago (Q4 call) said SR was gonna come in the middle of 2019.

I'd be interested in that quote. On Twitter he had said in October.
It’s a long range battery with fewer cells. Non-cell portion of the pack is disproportionately high, but we can get it done now instead of ~February
7:14 PM · Oct 18, 2018 · Twitter for iPhone
Which indicates to me that smaller pack 3s (SR) were planned for that time period.
 
Range is also not the only factor. We use our EV for city only. Barely touch the range.

Irrelevant. Your anecdotal situation doesn't change what most people are concerned with, price and range.

Let’s bet. When both are at full production I think the y will outsell the 3. By your argument should be the 3. Care to wager?
2-3 years from now, after Tesla has leveraged cost and production improvements which started with the 3, I have no doubt that the Y could be a better seller. However that's a different situation from when the 3 was actually released. Tesla needed the most efficient platform in order to make a $35K vehicle and a slippery sedan fit the bill. It also fit the bill to maximize performance and further the mission of making ICE vehicles look irrelevant.
 
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I'm fairly confident that Tesla will be opening regional sales centers within the next 6 months. These regional sales centers will be big lots with lots of cars in stock. You'll be able to go there, do a test drive, and drive a car off the lot. All in less than an hour.

The regional sales centers will start in the U.S. with large metro areas.

This is pure conjecture on my part, but is a no-brainer in my opinion.

Also, within the next 3-6 months Tesla will announce different ways where people can get a test drive in a Model S/X/3. You'll be able to stop by your local service center for a test drive, or have a Tesla employee drive out to your house to have you test drive the car. This is again purely conjecture, but only makes sense.
 
Irrelevant. Your anecdotal situation doesn't change what most people are concerned with, price and range.


2-3 years from now, after Tesla has leveraged cost and production improvements which started with the 3, I have no doubt that the Y could be a better seller. However that's a different situation from when the 3 was actually released. Tesla needed the most efficient platform in order to make a $35K vehicle and a slippery sedan fit the bill. It also fit the bill to maximize performance and further the mission of making ICE vehicles look irrelevant.

Average American household owns 2 vehicles. Non anecdotal. If you think they will dive into an EV for their road trip vehicle, well you are mistaken. The first one to go EV will be their daily smaller car. Average American commute is under an hour, Round trip. Non-antecdotal.
 
Average American household owns 2 vehicles. Non anecdotal. If you think they will dive into an EV for their road trip vehicle, well you are mistaken. The first one to go EV will be their daily smaller car. Average American commute is under an hour, Round trip. Non-antecdotal.

We replaced our larger car with an EV and it's the road trip car. But I telecommute and my SO only goes into the office 1-2 times a week.
 
Average American household owns 2 vehicles. Non anecdotal. If you think they will dive into an EV for their road trip vehicle, well you are mistaken. The first one to go EV will be their daily smaller car. Average American commute is under an hour, Round trip. Non-antecdotal.
The reality of vehicle use has little to do with the limitations on ev sales, which are range and price. Those are the first questions most people ask about an ev, regardless of the fact that they normally drive less than 40 miles a day. Why weren't we all driving evs years ago? Because they cost too much and didn't have enough range. If evs went 500 + miles and cost $20k no one would be driving ice vehicles.
 
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I'm fairly confident that Tesla will be opening regional sales centers within the next 6 months. These regional sales centers will be big lots with lots of cars in stock. You'll be able to go there, do a test drive, and drive a car off the lot. All in less than an hour.

The regional sales centers will start in the U.S. with large metro areas.

This is pure conjecture on my part, but is a no-brainer in my opinion.

Also, within the next 3-6 months Tesla will announce different ways where people can get a test drive in a Model S/X/3. You'll be able to stop by your local service center for a test drive, or have a Tesla employee drive out to your house to have you test drive the car. This is again purely conjecture, but only makes sense.
Now that the $35k M3 is available and H3 is supposedly very close to being available, it makes me wonder if the Tesla Network will be available soon. I’d guess when it’s first available it will be Uber-like with the owners driving, and evolve to driverless as the autonomy evolves. Tesla Network, as others have commented, will be a good way to share the experience and assist with sales too.
 
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I think the biggest sign that demand softened quicker than Musk/Tesla expected and that this was a relatively quick pivot is that Musk publicly not that long ago (Q4 call) said SR was gonna come in the middle of 2019. he didnt hint at anything about closing stores or what not. furthermore Tesla actually opened a bunch of stores in late 2018. they were on a retail push. they opened 11 stores the week of December 10 alone. Tesla Expands U.S. Store Network By 10% In Just One Week
https://insideevs.com/tesla-expands-11-new-stores-in-u-s/
The stores were a quick pivot. Musk is known for quick pivots. I think it was an overdue pivot honestly.

As for Model 3, I'm sure they've been pushing as fast as they can to get to it all along. They got there.

I think Tesla felt a need to lower price because orders were just not keeping up with production and the least bad option to do so was another round of layoffs basically. what's concerning for me as investor is the ping ponging from doing a retail push to decide basically two months later you are leaving retail totally.
Remember battery swapping? Remember free unlimited ranger service? Remember free Supercharging? Remember "gigabytes of storage on the main computer for your music"? Remember when they planned to build a hybrid? Remember the aero wheels for Model S? The company (probably mostly Musk) is known for sudden and drastic reversals.
 
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