Autocross- SCCA EV-X Class vs. SS

[Rodney!]

That's how I'm reading it.

I like how you thumbed down my post. You are a long time SCCA hater, we get it. Why bother even respond to something you hate? #doitbetter

 

[SK360]

I like how you thumbed down my post. You are a long time SCCA hater, we get it. Why bother even respond to something you hate? #doitbetter

I still run with clubs that follow SCCA classing. I enjoyed your back patting about your $12k AS build tho, I'm sure the SCCA cared. And I think we all have a collective interest in seeing the cars be successful in class.... well maybe all of us.

 

[Rodney!]

I still run with clubs that follow SCCA classing. I enjoyed your back patting about your $12k AS build tho, I'm sure the SCCA cared.

Umm, ok?

It wasn't braggadocio, it was the fact that they moved the car, so I was going to do a full faith effort in attempt to win. Come the second week of September, I will know that I did everything in my power to put the Tesla on top of A Street.

If I do not do that well, and I feel that I drove 100% with 100% setup, that will just be data point to possibly move the car later to B Street.

Or, I can just try again in 2025.

 

[The Other Dan]

I'll be real interested to see what a full prep AS M3P can do vs our current prep EVX.

 

[mron]

I agree on most points that Rodney has pointed out concerning the 24' M3P. It's already been an effort to even get the 18-23' moved to AS in the first place with the amount of animosity towards it. The norm AS guys don't want us in it period, and it seems no one ICE related wants us in any class. I'm all for an EV indexed class.

Not sure if this fell on deaf ears when I stated this last year, but from what I was told, the data points for the car were not there to move the car from SS. In the eyes of the SEB, there wasn't a serious competitor campaigning the car in SS to merit the move out of it. And not to stroke my own ego (honestly, that's not who I am), I was personally told that eyes were on my results from the events I did last year and that it would directly weigh on the car moving or not.

So the move to put the 24' in SS is the right move. No data points if it's going to be much better at autocross than it's predecessor and in the instance that it is, it's in the right spot.

Personally, I will not be full sending AS build yet.. If the SCCA implements camber mods for one axle in street class, then this in my opinion will be a huge game changer for our cars and until then, dumping a bunch of money into shocks is just not worth it for me at this time.

And, in my opinion, the 18-23' M3P does NOT belong in BS and it's not even in the stratosphere to consider it being moved there. No need to beat a dead horse anymore. AS is our new home, let's hope we get camber mods approved.

 

[gearchruncher]

And, in my opinion, the 18-23' M3P does NOT belong in BS and it's not even in the stratosphere to consider it being moved there.

Can you explain why? When has a stock M3P ever beat BS in RAW time except in local events, in wet weather, or the one time David Marcus beat a mustang by 0.070S in 2018 (the same David Marcus that wins BS in other cars as well by larger gaps...)? And that was 5 years ago and BS has gotten faster since then while the M3P has not.

Not sure if this fell on deaf ears when I stated this last year, but from what I was told, the data points for the car were not there to move the car from SS.

Sure there was. David Marcus ran one in BS in 2019 and barely won BS. The car received no important changes since then, which was the whole argument to move it to SS, that it could get a SW update overnight that adds massive performance. If that car was in AS in 2019 it would have come in 14th in that very competitive AS field. How is a car that comes in 14th in AS with a multi time national champion at the wheel a car that has no data to be moved from SS?

So nobody ran one in SS- because it's pointless. And then the SEB says "well, nobody seriously campaigns one, so we have no data."? If we put the Supra in SS, would anyone "seriously campaign one"?

How come we don't start every car released in SS until we have more data? New Miata? Straight to SS with you.

I was personally told that eyes were on my results from the events I did last year and that it would directly weigh on the car moving or not.

Did you crush the quickest BS car every single event you ran at?

So the move to put the 24' in SS is the right move. No data points if it's going to be much better at autocross than it's predecessor and in the instance that it is, it's in the right spot.

This is only logical if you think the current M3P has any chance in AS. There is no data that it does. This stinks of "I got mine, FU," New, faster cars show up in classes all the time and take over the previous top dog. Wouldn't it be awesome to have us supported the new M3P in AS, instead of going "I spent $12K preparing mine, so you're not allowed in my class!"?

Appreciate people doing their best to see what the M3P can do in AS, and glad we'll get to see a max AS build at nationals. But pretty annoyed that the same people actively worked to keep the '24 out of AS. I'm convinced history will not look kindly on that, just like history proved David Marcus severely wrong and it makes him look like an ass.

 

[gearchruncher]

An indexed EV class is a solution where we all get what we want.

No it's not. The SCCA has a way to index all sorts of cars, and EV's are not special. No more than an AWD car, or RWD car, or hybrid, or....
Just put the cars in the right class that is supported by data. I don't want special treatment, I want to play in the same place as I do in my ICE cars.

 

[The Other Dan]

Wonder if the Porsche boards are having the same arguments of GT4 vs GT4 RS in SS? I know of a large group of GT4 owners have been in a letter writing campaign to the SEB.
And apparently we have 2 people here that think the '24 M3P directly competes with the RS. Cool. I mean, I guess that could be taken as a complement for the '24.

 

[dsgerbc]

Another viewpoint that quite a few of us have, is to have one indexed EV class. Yep, stick all the EV's in one class, and figure out a pax that works for them. 2024 M3P would have a SS like pax, and a Chevy Bolt could have a HS like pax. Toss in some EVX cars with whetever pass is appropriate, and adjust index till competition gets tighter. That get's rid of all the whiny "see you next tuesdays" that don't want EV's in their ICE classes. An indexed EV class is a solution where we all get what we want.

Personally, I think it's a solid idea. I'd love for there to be an index for most popular cars, and no class b.s. And an index to ST-level mods, SP-level mods etc.
If we can start small and have that in the EV field, it'd pave the way for broader implementation in the future. Just need to do away with Rick's ancient method of updating PAX and perform some quality statistical analysis to estimate cars' performance net of driver impact.

I think AS is a good spot for the 3. We already have a hate problem. I try to avoid bringing my 3 to events at small lots. Because when I accidentally end up at much smaller lots than expected, even a quite average driver like me can take top PAX. The 3 in BS would make the problem a lot worse and generate even more hate.

Personally, I'll be watching the guys in AS at Nats closely. If they trophy, I'll probably switch to AS from EVX keeping my Ohlins shocks.
Top EVX builds will probably soon require punishing spring rates to be competitive. In AS, if I suck I'll know that it's me. In EVX, (no offense to anyone here) byt I think SEB has a point when they say that no alien-level drivers have driven the car nationally, so the PAX may actually be quite soft.

 

[mron]

Can you explain why? When has a stock M3P ever beat BS in RAW time except in local events, in wet weather, or the one time David Marcus beat a mustang by 0.070S in 2018 (the same David Marcus that wins BS in other cars as well by larger gaps...)? And that was 5 years ago and BS has gotten faster since then while the M3P has not.

Well aside from my opinion, this is what I was explicitly told from a member of the SEB last year (no longer a member this year). I don't see this changing. Like I said, the animosity towards our car just being classed with ICE cars is honestly astonishing.

Sure there was. David Marcus ran one in BS in 2019 and barely won BS. The car received no important changes since then, which was the whole argument to move it to SS, that it could get a SW update overnight that adds massive performance. If that car was in AS in 2019 it would have come in 14th in that very competitive AS field. How is a car that comes in 14th in AS with a multi time national champion at the wheel a car that has no data to be moved from SS?

So nobody ran one in SS- because it's pointless. And then the SEB says "well, nobody seriously campaigns one, so we have no data."? If we put the Supra in SS, would anyone "seriously campaign one"?

How come we don't start every car released in SS until we have more data? New Miata? Straight to SS with you.

I can only comment on what went down with all of this back in 2019, but Daddio was less than pleased being beat by the M3P and along with him and Marcus, they both campaigned to get the car buried in SS. If I were to put money on something, I would've bet on Daddio beating Marcus, and I only feel that Daddio himself felt Marcus only beat him because of the oversight of the M3P not belonging in BS.. Look at what happened to the GR corolla last year when it dominated a well known name, by a unknown driver in DS. They promptly buried that car the immediate next national event. And also to directly touch on your comment, I'm only reiterating what I was told. I have no data, I just showed up and drove.

Did you crush the quickest BS car every single event you ran at?

Looked back at the events last year and surprisingly there were no BS cars at the events I ran. I won SS in all events expect one and my times were competing against AS and even beating Simms raw time at one of them.

This is only logical if you think the current M3P has any chance in AS. There is no data that it does. This stinks of "I got mine, FU," New, faster cars show up in classes all the time and take over the previous top dog. Wouldn't it be awesome to have us supported the new M3P in AS, instead of going "I spent $12K preparing mine, so you're not allowed in my class!"?

Appreciate people doing their best to see what the M3P can do in AS, and glad we'll get to see a max AS build at nationals. But pretty annoyed that the same people actively worked to keep the '24 out of AS. I'm convinced history will not look kindly on that, just like history proved David Marcus severely wrong and it makes him look like an ass.

Honestly, I think the M3P fits in AS just fine. Will it win NATs? Odds are against it for sure, but if the camber ruleset comes, that'll change for sure.

I guess I don't get why we want the 24' to be classed in AS? That would just render our cars completely useless again... If the thought was to get the 18-23' to BS, well, I'm fairly confident hell would freeze over before that happened since that is specifically what I was told. I'm not actively trying to sabotage the 24', it's just with the information I was given, it going to SS was a given even if the letters weren't written. We're playing in a ball game that the majority don't want us there playing. So unfortunately, we have to play by their rules. It sucks, but what else can we do? And for the record, Marcus is an ass and I think he won BS against Daddio because of the M3P and I have a feeling that I'm not the only one that thinks this as well.

 

[Lindenwood]

Maybe it’s because I came up running what ya brung, but this is why I barely pay attention to Pax.

When a well-modded Civic gets beat by a car length on the highway by a Ferrari, everyone still leaves knowing the Civic put in a good effort and the Ferrari is a Ferrari. It seems once we start trying to codify the previously-intuitive spectral classification of cars, animosity goes through the roof….

When racing dirt bikes on my 80 trying to keep up with the grownups. or later in my 250 2-stroke and leading a pack of 80s for fun, we all finished high-fiving.

More relevantly, when I only beat a Miata by 2 seconds RAW on a 50-second course, I go shake that driver’s hand because clearly they have not only done a great job building the car, but also in driving it.

 

[gearchruncher]

Maybe it’s because I came up running what ya brung, but this is why I barely pay attention to Pax.

But we're mostly talking car classing here, not PAX.

AutoX would absolutely be a completely dead sport without car classing. It takes zero skill in a GT3RS or a full custom E-Mod car to beat a Model 3 or a Miata. It becomes about just money.

People want to compete, and without cost controls (which is what classing really is), no amateur sport can survive.

In a lot of ways, that's the issue with the Teslas- when your $35K 4 door sedan can beat on $100K 911's or C8's, that makes people feel bad, and since they can't put it in the class with $35K other cars, they put it in the class with $250K cars so that it can just be ignored.

 

[Lindenwood]

But we're mostly talking car classing here, not PAX.

AutoX would absolutely be a completely dead sport without car classing. It takes zero skill in a GT3RS or a full custom E-Mod car to beat a Model 3 or a Miata. It becomes about just money.

People want to compete, and without cost controls (which is what classing really is), no amateur sport can survive.

In a lot of ways, that's the issue with the Teslas- when your $35K 4 door sedan can beat on $100K 911's or C8's, that makes people feel bad, and since they can't put it in the class with $35K other cars, they put it in the class with $250K cars so that it can just be ignored.

That’s fair, but I guess the assumption is everyone participates for the trophies. I’ve won multiple local FTDs and the best I’ve received was a cheap cone with a “1st Place” sticker on it. Honestly those are in the trash while I kept the memories of the experience.

Though you’re right, the M3P absolutely shines for its price on the short course. That, coupled with EV Hate, coupled with Tesla hate, coupled with Elon hate, seems to be very triggering. On the lighter side of that, I’ll never forget the young man who rode with me on one of my winning runs lamenting about having just bought a brand new $40,000 V6 Challenger when finding out the same money could have gotten him a 2 year old M3P that was literally better in almost every way…

I really do understand competing at high levels in any sport requires very specific rules and control measures in place to keep the playing field level. But, the most fun I’ve had playing basketball was in pickup games with a wide range of people, and the most fun I’ve had at car meets and AutoX events was when car values ranged from $3k to $200k.

All that said, I’m seeing that my interests are probably not quite relevant to this part of the discussion (I’m doing the “I don’t care about this so nobody else should” thing) so I’ll continue to observe and chime in elsewhere . Apologies!