Autopilot getting worse

[Matt L]

Um, no. FSD feature complete by the end of the year, but it will still need to be monitored and overridden on occasion.

And the Elon optimism time adjustment says probably six months later.

I’m as big of a believer than anyone, but the more I drive with AP...the more I think we are a long way from FSD

 

[BobAbooey]

I seem to be having more and more false braking with autopilot, and it's abrupt. Just a matter of time before I get rear ended.

Mostly with left turn-offs of a freeway, where you have a gap in the line so the car wants to center itself, and then it see's the white line and slams on the brakes.

The car should ALWAYS follow the solid line or the straightest line, this would also correct when lanes get wider and it wants to center itself and then jerks to one side or another.

Autopilot also seems like is stays too wide on corners, instead of following the center or apex leaning side. This freaks out other cars.

Yeah sometimes changed it’s pretty bad

 

[Aellinsar]

I’m as big of a believer than anyone, but the more I drive with AP...the more I think we are a long way from FSD

Agreed!

 

[merlin337]

I stopped using autopilot entirely. Frankly it's dangerous. It drives so herky jerky, suddenly braking and then speeding up. When making an automatic lane change it signals and then waits forever to actually make the change. Cars around you have no idea what you are doing. The frequent sudden phantom braking greatly increases the chances of getting rear ended. It passes on the right all the time. I find it far more stressful to have AP on if there are any other cars around. I usually take it off after a couple of it's spaz moves. It's really not ready for prime time. I regret paying the extra $5000 for FSD. It is a loooong ways off..

 

[5_+JqckQttqck]

I stopped using autopilot entirely. Frankly it's dangerous. It drives so herky jerky, suddenly braking and then speeding up. When making an automatic lane change it signals and then waits forever to actually make the change. Cars around you have no idea what you are doing. The frequent sudden phantom braking greatly increases the chances of getting rear ended. It passes on the right all the time. I find it far more stressful to have AP on if there are any other cars around. I usually take it off after a couple of it's spaz moves. It's really not ready for prime time. I regret paying the extra $5000 for FSD. It is a loooong ways off..

To be fair, the system is doing what it's designed to do. The phantom braking/slowdowns are response to sudden jerks/changes by the cars around you. I've noticed this on 2019.12.xxx when cars drift in, AP recognizes the behavior and actively slows down. If you're going fast and the traffic ahead isn't matching, it can be quite jarring at times. Better than rear ending some schmuck.

As for Auto Lane change, I personally don't use it. I turn off speed based lane changes and stay in control of the vehicle.

For FSD features, be glad you get to use it , Canadian laws prevent even summon from working properly. My car is parked 15 feet away from the office door in the middle section of the parking lot and it's been raining a lot lately. Cannot even summon the car closer! #firstworldproblems eh

 

[merlin337]

To be fair, the system is doing what it's designed to do. The phantom braking/slowdowns are response to sudden jerks/changes by the cars around you. I've noticed this on 2019.12.xxx when cars drift in, AP recognizes the behavior and actively slows down. If you're going fast and the traffic ahead isn't matching, it can be quite jarring at times. Better than rear ending some schmuck.

As for Auto Lane change, I personally don't use it. I turn off speed based lane changes and stay in control of the vehicle.

For FSD features, be glad you get to use it , Canadian laws prevent even summon from working properly. My car is parked 15 feet away from the office door in the middle section of the parking lot and it's been raining a lot lately. Cannot even summon the car closer! #firstworldproblems eh

With all due respect you are being a bit of an apologist. The term "phantom braking" means sudden and overly severe braking when there is not justifiable cause. Of course if someone was to cut me off and the car suddenly braked that would be a good thing. This is not what's happening. Some braking has no cause whatsoever. Other times it is far to hard and sudden for what is warranted. Humans don't normally drive like this so anyone closely following behind won't expect this and might rear end me. Also it's just not a pleasant driving experience. The car behaves very herky jerky. It's unnerving and more stressful. The system needs to be more subtle in it's responses. If a car moves into my lane 3 lengths ahead instead of the set 4 lengths it should gently slow to reestablish the proper gap not abruptly brake which is potentially DANGEROUS. Please don't deny that this is what happens.

 

[Knightshade]

With all due respect you are being a bit of an apologist. The term "phantom braking" means sudden and overly severe braking when there is not justifiable cause.

In thousands and thousands of miles using autopilot I've never, ever, had that happen.

There was always a cause if I looked for it- sometimes it's the car being overly cautious that the guy drifting over in his lane is about to cut me off- but there's still a visible reason for it.

(I know some So Cal folks claim the car brakes for overpass shadows, but I drive under overpasses, a bunch of em, every day, both ways, to and from work for 70-80 miles roundtrip, almost entirely on AP, and it's ever happened... maybe the shadows in CA are different?)

Humans don't normally drive like this so anyone closely following behind won't expect this and might rear end me.

Speaking of apologists


Anyone following so closely they can't react to the car in front of them suddenly braking is illegally following too closely.

As a human I've certainly had to slam on my brakes (harder than AP tends to) when an emergency situation of some kind happens in front of me... (someone starts hydroplaning, a deer runs out, something falls off another vehicle, etc). Anybody following so close they hit me, that's them doing something wrong, not me.

Same if someone hits you from behind when AP brakes. That's why in most states if you're hit from behind it's their fault.

Also it's just not a pleasant driving experience. The car behaves very herky jerky. It's unnerving and more stressful. The system needs to be more subtle in it's responses. If a car moves into my lane 3 lengths ahead instead of the set 4 lengths it should gently slow to reestablish the proper gap not abruptly brake which is potentially DANGEROUS. Please don't deny that this is what happens.

If it "gently slowed" then you'd be driving too close to the car in front of you part of the time.

And more likely to hit them if they slam on the brakes.

AP is measurably safer than human driving, based on what (admittedly shallow) data we have on it.

 

[5_+JqckQttqck]

With all due respect you are being a bit of an apologist. The term "phantom braking" means sudden and overly severe braking when there is not justifiable cause. Of course if someone was to cut me off and the car suddenly braked that would be a good thing. This is not what's happening. Some braking has no cause whatsoever. Other times it is far to hard and sudden for what is warranted. Humans don't normally drive like this so anyone closely following behind won't expect this and might rear end me. Also it's just not a pleasant driving experience. The car behaves very herky jerky. It's unnerving and more stressful. The system needs to be more subtle in it's responses. If a car moves into my lane 3 lengths ahead instead of the set 4 lengths it should gently slow to reestablish the proper gap not abruptly brake which is potentially DANGEROUS. Please don't deny that this is what happens.

Well, since we live in different locations and different commutes in different road ways, here is my experience with AP legit "Phantom Braking" as you describe it to be:

1. Road construction where it was a normal road (60kph) and the highway is being expanded into that space (geo tagged as 60 zone).

2. There's a bump in the road and the radar thinks there's something there.

Both of these situations occur on roads I've very familiar with as it's on the commute. I don't have any issues with engaging AP as I know when to add in some throttle.

Each driver have their own style and risk profiles, I'm okay with AP, you're not. Nothing wrong with that. You do what you need to do to feel safe behind the wheel. Have fun and enjoy the car

 

[merlin337]

Well, since we live in different locations and different commutes in different road ways, here is my experience with AP legit "Phantom Braking" as you describe it to be:

1. Road construction where it was a normal road (60kph) and the highway is being expanded into that space (geo tagged as 60 zone).

2. There's a bump in the road and the radar thinks there's something there.

Both of these situations occur on roads I've very familiar with as it's on the commute. I don't have any issues with engaging AP as I know when to add in some throttle.

Each driver have their own style and risk profiles, I'm okay with AP, you're not. Nothing wrong with that. You do what you need to do to feel safe behind the wheel. Have fun and enjoy the car

 

[merlin337]

Yes. I don't mean to knock the Model 3. I love the car and love driving it. Best car I've ever owned. Just hate AP. It drives like a nervous teenager the first time they drive on the highway. And I don't know if it is actually safer to use AP or not but it certainly doesn't feel safe to me.

 

[merlin337]

If it "gently slowed" then you'd be driving too close to the car in front of you part of the time.

(admittedly shallow) data we have on it.

But as I said this isn't how other humans drive or are expected to drive. Almost no one abruptly slows when a car eases into their lane a good 3 car lengths ahead of them. The keep pace and may gradually back off so it is hardly noticeable. AP abruptly slows which is potentially dangerous. Whether it's good driving or not other drivers follow very close a lot of the time. I don't want my car abruptly slowing on it's own when it wouldn't be expected from the driver behind me.

 

[Knightshade]

But as I said this isn't how other humans drive

True- humans are pretty bad drivers and do dangerous things all the time.

Following too closely for example- which is the exact mistake AP is avoiding by maintaining follow distance as quickly as it can.

or are expected to drive.

On the contrary you are EXPECTED to do what AP does- quickly respond to driving conditions to maintain a safe follow distance.

In fact continuing to follow too closely is illegal in many (most?) states.

Almost no one abruptly slows when a car eases into their lane a good 3 car lengths ahead of them.

Possibly you have the follow distance set too far away right now and should set it lower?

My car slows down considerably if someone cuts me off fairly closely-which it should do because otherwise I'd be following too closely.

But not if they're already a good distance in front (unless they're also slowing abruptly- in which case it also should be)

Whether it's good driving or not other drivers follow very close a lot of the time.

Again if they're following so closely they can't stop before hitting you they are driving dangerously (and likely illegally)

I think the fact folks running AP apparently have accidents far less often than those not running on AP contradicts your claims it's "more dangerous" the way AP does things though

 

[merlin337]

Is that really true? I'd like to see the data on that. Even if so it is likely biased data. People are likely much less likely to engage autopilot when traffic is crazy than when it is light and calm.

 

[merlin337]

This is what I mean by apologist. You seem to have an excuse or rationalization for everything AP does. If I was driving with another person and they drove like AP does I would think they were a terrible driver. Apparently I am not alone as many others on this forum say the same. Even my wife who is a safety first person told me to turn it off because she didn't feel safe the way it was driving.

 

[merlin337]

Here is the other issue. AP gets over hyped by the fan boys. I read up a lot before I purchased my car. My impression based on the enthusiasts was that AP was amazing. I purchased the FSD for $5000 so obviously I'm not biased against it. When I got my car and used it I was very disappointed with how AP drives and feel it is oversold by many on this forum. I just want to give others like myself a sense of reality.

 

[Aellinsar]

A tangent to the current conversation, but how much does Volvo's Pilot Assist cost compared to AP? I drove a Volvo rental car last week and the two systems felt pretty similar.

 

[StellarRat]

I don't know. I think mine's actually improved. It used to slow down to 25 mph for no reason on this one spot on the highway and since the last update that no longer happens. Now I don't have to get ready to handle that spot anymore every time I drive that route.

 

[chibi_kurochan]

Agree completely! Remember we are still Beta testing for Tesla. None of this is final release yet. I have been using AP since version 1 on my 2015 Model S. The capabilities have improved dramatically, but there is NO situational awareness. Old version would just dumbly follow road and traffic, NEVER a phantom or microbraking incident. New version, happens at least once every commute. Car makes some really dumb decisions. Nav on AP routinely makes bad decisions, regular AP still pretty good. My biggest complaint is the car trying to change lanes to prepare for an exit on right side. 2 miles to go, I am smoothly and substantially passing a car on the right, when suddenly the car will SLAM on the brakes to get behind a much slower car. I am over now, but still have 1.5 miles to go and 15 under the speed limit... Still the best out there for consumers, just not yet ready for an unaware consumer...

i completely agree with this summary.

I've also seen how much it improved since AP1, and especially early days of AP2 early 2017 where it was non-existent.. it's sort of a cyclical learning.. to me it feels like they are tuning the NN between aggressive and passive across different versions. so, it can be a bit cyclical between more phantom braking and less braking..

One thing, this Is BETA. people should have the correct expectation, when you "Agree" upon first turning on Autopilot. HANDS on and ALWAYS ready to take over.

 

[Knightshade]

Is that really true? I'd like to see the data on that.

That it's safer than human drivers?

Tesla published it every quarter-

Tesla Vehicle Safety Report

It's not an ideal double-blind study or anything, but it's the best information available to the public.

I
Even if so it is likely biased data. People are likely much less likely to engage autopilot when traffic is crazy than when it is light and calm.

On the contrary, when traffic is heavy is one of the best times to use it as there's a ton more micro-actions you have to take in stop-and-start heavy traffic compared to just cruising on the highway in light traffic that AP can take off your plate.

This is what I mean by apologist. You seem to have an excuse or rationalization for everything AP does.

If you have any fact-based rebuttals, I am all ears.

But attacking AP by saying "It's doing it wrong because other humans might be driving illegally too close to your rear" has you as the apologist in the discussion.

You're defending illegal driving as the excuse for the system that all data we have shows is safer than humans ought to be made less safe and follow dangerously close itself more often because "that's how people drive"

If I was driving with another person and they drove like AP does I would think they were a terrible driver. Apparently I am not alone as many others on this forum say the same. Even my wife who is a safety first person told me to turn it off because she didn't feel safe the way it was driving.

Just about everyone thinks they are an above average driver.

Roughly half of them are wrong.

Here is the other issue. AP gets over hyped by the fan boys. I read up a lot before I purchased my car. My impression based on the enthusiasts was that AP was amazing

It is.

It's literally the reason I bought the car, and I use it for 90-95% of my daily driving. It makes it painful anytime I have to make the same drives in our other vehicle.

I got a 24 hour test drive of a Tesla before purchasing to use it on my actual drive to/from work to confirm how well it works and it's terrific.

That said- I'm not in places where everyone drives the entire trip 3 inches off everyones bumper, and I'm not in places where whatever is going on in SoCal that makes the car jump at shadows is happening either.

 

[merlin337]

I'm glad you like it. A lot of people do. But I hate it. It makes the driving experience very unpleasant and I'm sure it pisses off other drivers around me with it's sometimes erratic behavior.

BTW what do you set your follow distance at? I have mine set at 4 as I heard that makes it's behavior less jerky. Is there a better setting? I really want to like it and am willing to experiment or take suggestions.