Battery Degradation and Warranty Discussion

[ICEBreaker]

Each time I have held this debate in my head (used MS vs. new M3), it doesn't last long because of the unknown use and abuse the S battery may have endured and the evolution of the 2170 battery that will have occurred by the time the 3 actually goes into production. That, and the fact that the S will just BARELY fit in my garage and simply parking/backing it out there would be an overly anxious activity.

Very good point! Are the batteries covered in the used MS warranty?

 

[LBusDoor90]

Very good point! Are the batteries covered in the used MS warranty?

Batteries are only covered by the warranty for an inability to function at all. If they lose their initial 100% charging capacity due to normal use (or even some degree of misuse), that is not covered by the warranty even if you are the original owner and you will just have to cope with the resulting 60 or 70% charging capability. I have seen this debated and decided in other threads and comments of articles using the literal reading of the warranty.

 

[Max*]

Batteries are only covered by the warranty for an inability to function at all. If they lose their initial 100% charging capacity due to normal use (or even some degree of misuse), that is not covered by the warranty even if you are the original owner and you will just have to cope with the resulting 60 or 70% charging capability. I have seen this debated and decided in other threads and comments of articles using the literal reading of the warranty.

Link to show someone getting denied warranty work for 60% or 70% SOC? Because otherwise this is just a made up hypothesis.

Model S batteries are covered (and the drivetrain) for 8 years, unlimited miles from the date of production. This does not cover NORMAL degradation. So far the curve is about 3% for the first year and about 1% loss of battery capacity there on. Many people stabilized at 5-6% loss of initial capacity after about 4 years.

If someone had 30%-40% loss, I would fully expect Tesla to fix it. That's not normal degradation.

 

[ICEBreaker]

Batteries are only covered by the warranty for an inability to function at all. If they lose their initial 100% charging capacity due to normal use (or even some degree of misuse), that is not covered by the warranty even if you are the original owner and you will just have to cope with the resulting 60 or 70% charging capability. I have seen this debated and decided in other threads and comments of articles using the literal reading of the warranty.

Very good things to know!

 

[Max*]

Very good point! Are the batteries covered in the used MS warranty?

Yes, for all owners. Infinite Mile Warranty

 

[cronosx]

It seems that the degradation of the battery is far less, so it's not probable that you'll end up with 60% more probably with 85-90% wich is really great.. and of course before you buy it you can check when fully charged how many miles it has of autonomy.

 

[LBusDoor90]

Link to show someone getting denied warranty work for 60% or 70% SOC? Because otherwise this is just a made up hypothesis...

If someone had 30%-40% loss, I would fully expect Tesla to fix it. That's not normal degradation.

I have no such data and I hope you are correct. I was trying to put out there my concern with buying a used MS and how during the car's 2nd owning, I can't see the warranty covering that kind of degradation. I'm going to assume the normal degradation you referred to is data from owners that continue to own their cars and have been therefore motivated to charge their cars properly with battery life a concern. Does that average degradation definitely include data from those Elon asked to stop using the super chargers so much, who might also have been charging their batteries to 100% more than they should have for more acceleration bursts because they are the types that always unload their cars after 50k miles or so anyway? My personal worry (as someone who needs each car to last a minimum of 10 years) is that I can't afford to get stuck with a battery already only charging to 80% of its capacity to begin a decade of ownership. I'm sure I'd see 60-70% charging before the end of it.

I apologize for inadvertently hijacking this thread also.

 

[Max*]

Does that average degradation definitely include data from those Elon asked to stop using the super chargers so much, who might also have been charging their batteries to 100% more than they should have for more acceleration bursts because they are the types that always unload their cars after 50k miles or so anyway?

That I don't have an answer to.

But the car does warn you if you have the charge set past 90% for more than 3 consecutive days.

And for the acceleration bursts, that only applies to the P85D/P90D/P90DL. The non-performance D-models are not battery limited for acceleration (and I don't know about the regular P85/P85+, I think they might be more traction limited than battery limited)

 

[Drivin]

Link to show someone getting denied warranty work for 60% or 70% SOC? Because otherwise this is just a made up hypothesis.

If someone had 30%-40% loss, I would fully expect Tesla to fix it. That's not normal degradation.

Link to Tesla officially stating what level of degradation they cover under the warrantee?

Because otherwise this is just a made up hypothesis.

I will counter your made up hypothesis with my own made up hypothesis!
Classic.
LOL.

 

[Max*]

Link to Tesla officially stating what level of degradation they cover under the warrantee?

I will counter your made up hypothesis with my own made up hypothesis!
Classic.
LOL.

Tesla has stated (in their warranty, blog, etc.) that they will not cover normal degradation (in some fashion or other) with the 8-year unlimited mile warranty. Tesla has never stated what they consider "not" normal. But based on scientific data (below), I stand by my comment - a 30%-40% loss during the warranty period is not normal degradation.

Here's some reports on normal battery degradation.

Here's links with curves:
Tesla Model S battery pack data shows very little capacity loss over high mileage

Tesla Model S Battery Degradation Data

Battery Degradation Level In Tesla Model S Only 5% After 30,000 Miles?

Here's others:
Life With Tesla Model S: Battery Degradation Update

Tesla Model S Battery Life: How Much Range Loss For Electric Car Over Time?

Worried about Tesla battery degradation? It's 23 miles per every 100,000 driven

Check mate.
"LOL"

 

[Drivin]

Sure, here's some reports on normal battery degradation.

Here's links with curves:


You may try again at your witty reply, but I stand by my comment. a 30%-40% loss during the life of the battery is not normal degradation.

You also said they would fix it.

Where is what I asked for - a link that Tesla states what level of degradation they will replace/fix a battery?

I have not seen that posted.
Do you have that link or is that just a "made up hypothesis" that you pulled out of your.....imagination... after you complained about someone else's made up hypothesis?

 

[Max*]

You also said they would fix it.

I did no such thing.

Where is what I asked for - a link that Tesla states what level of degradation they will replace/fix a battery?

There is no link, and you're fully aware of that. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to compare your degradation to other cars, look at the standard deviation, and see if yours is normal or not. 30%-40% is not normal.

 

[LBusDoor90]

That I don't have an answer to.

But the car does warn you if you have the charge set past 90% for more than 3 consecutive days.

And for the acceleration bursts, that only applies to the P85D/P90D/P90DL. The non-performance D-models are not battery limited for acceleration (and I don't know about the regular P85/P85+, I think they might be more traction limited than battery limited)

Glad to hear both of those. Nonetheless, with a longer wait and higher price to pay considered, I'd rather purchase a brand new set of 2170 cells in 2018 than an older tech battery that might already be down to 90% charging to be certain I'll have a car that lasts 10 years.

 

[Drivin]

I did no such thing

I would fully expect Tesla to fix it.

LOL.

There is no link, and you're fully aware of that. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to compare your degradation to other cars, look at the standard deviation, and see if yours is normal or not. 30%-40% is not normal.

Ok. So all that you have is a "made up hypothesis" (about specifically what Tesla would cover in their warrantee) which you pulled out to refute what you claimed was someone else's "made up hypothesis".

You are very amusing.

The question isn't whether or not 30% is normal, it is not. You don't need to keep trying and move the goalposts.
The question is exactly what Tesla would cover under their warrantee.

 

[Max*]

I would fully expect Tesla to fix it.

You also said they would fix it.

I did no such thing.

LOL.

I emphasized the difference so you can see that I did no such thing.

Ok. So all that you have is a "made up hypothesis" (about specifically what Tesla would cover in their warrantee) which you pulled out to refute what you claimed was someone else's "made up hypothesis".

I used his own numbers, and said for those numbers I fully expect Tesla to repair the battery, as with those numbers it's not normal degradation (which you agreed with). I don't see what you're arguing, unless you're arguing for the sake of arguing, in which case, carry on.

The question is exactly what Tesla would cover under their warrantee.

Anything that's not normal degradation.

The question isn't whether or not 30% is normal, it is not.

So you just answered your own question. What else do you need from me?

Also, this was the original question, just so you can see.

Very good point! Are the batteries covered in the used MS warranty?

And the answer has been provided, yes they are covered, for all owners, for 8 years since the date of production. No, they don't cover normal degradation. No, Tesla never published what normal is. Yes, you (Drivin) agree that 30% isn't normal. Yes, my original claim that I would fully expect Tesla to fix it is valid (it's my expectations). No, I never said Tesla WOULD fix it, I said I would fully expect it (expectations don't always match reality). If you don't understand the difference, I'm sorry. I really am.



You're obviously intentionally trying to stir the pot, and it was fun while it lasted, but now that I've proven my point, time to move on. Have a nice day.

 

[Model 3]

Tesla has stated (in their warranty, blog, etc.) that they will not cover normal degradation (in some fashion or other) with the 8-year unlimited mile warranty. Tesla has never stated what they consider "not" normal. But based on scientific data (below), I stand by my comment - a 30%-40% loss during the warranty period is not normal degradation.

I do absolutely agree with you on your interpretation of the warranty here - except in some special use-cases. The warranty says "unlimited miles", but for a "million miles" within the warranty period they can still clam that this is "normal degradation". Or if the owner just charge the car to 100% - or often drive the car to it stops etc... If they had set a limit on the degradation they would still have to fix the battery if it got more then the limit in degradation.

 

[Max*]

I do absolutely agree with you on your interpretation of the warranty here - except in some special use-cases. The warranty says "unlimited miles", but for a "million miles" within the warranty period they can still clam that this is "normal degradation". Or if the owner just charge the car to 100% - or often drive the car to it stops etc... If they had set a limit on the degradation they would still have to fix the battery if it got more then the limit in degradation.

Good point, I could see that.

 

[cronosx]

I do absolutely agree with you on your interpretation of the warranty here - except in some special use-cases. The warranty says "unlimited miles", but for a "million miles" within the warranty period they can still clam that this is "normal degradation". Or if the owner just charge the car to 100% - or often drive the car to it stops etc... If they had set a limit on the degradation they would still have to fix the battery if it got more then the limit in degradation.

Normal degradation based on the years and the mileage.
It's implicit.
More km -> more "normal" degradation
You can't compare what's normal in 1k miles to what's normal in 10k or 100k or 1M

 

[Model 3]

Normal degradation based on the years and the mileage.

... and usage.

It's implicit.

Yes it is, but it would not be if the warranty said you should have at least 70% (or some other number) rest capacity in the battery at the end of the warranty period.

 

[cronosx]

But it didn't say it.. so what's the point?
I was thinking.. how many miles can you *really* do in 8years?
We shall consider 12h/day driving, for 8 years.. about 35k driving hours.
Considering an average speed of 75mi/h, we have 262,5k miles

And of course this is unrealistic.. you can't really drive for 12h at this average speed, but.. it's not too much after all, they can really consider to put a "at least 70%" or similar