Yea, I believe so.
I'm guessing that there was a "behind the scene, administrator discussion" that got it opened back up.
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Battery health tracking SS
- Thread starter msinfo
- Start date
I'm guessing that there was a "behind the scene, administrator discussion" that got it opened back up.
Looks like it. And (at least) one message disappeared.
Glad it's back. Thanks, Admins!
I think that is a misunderstanding.
First of all, Teslas advice most probably has quite little to do with ”reducing degradation to a minimum”. The reason for this is that Tesla would like to offer a car with high flexibillity ands as little limitations as possible. So, Teslas battery advice is to offer the maximum flexibillity with (still) an acceptable degradation.
If Tesla would like to absolute minimize the degradation, they would tell us to not charge more than we need*, to charge often and to charge late. It might become a court problem advising the EPA range but suggests to charge to 50% which makes the range to be only half the advertised.
Actually most ”Tesla advices” that people discuss on forum is not Teslas advices, but myths. I recommend everyone to actually read their own Tesla manual and read what is written there. All Teslas advice make sense actually.
Teslas advice is not ment to say that 80% daily is better than 50% daily. They recently change the daily from 90% to 80%, and before they said ”below 90%” as the daily. Below, as 50-89% if we take it on the exact words.
Now the app says ”80% recommended for daily”, but it only say this if you go above 80%, it do not show if you have the slider at 50 or 60%.
Teslas advices are very logic, and in line with the findings from battery reasearch as long as we remember that Teslas advice do not try to reduce degradation in the first place.
That is a new one. Haven't seen you make that as a point in other threads. Why now?
You're suggesting that Tesla doesn't want us to take care of our batteries because of the EPA. I would say that's further than the truth because if we look at Tesla, and it's history they really do want us to take care of our batteries, and you know all battery gate issues. Sometimes Tesla goes in and changes things without even allowing us input. Wouldn't you think that they would do the same to preserve the battery and the charging characteristics and the suggestions to the consumer?
By your suggestion, even charging to 90% let alone 80% wouldn't imply your EPA rationale. Suggestion by that means would always lead to less than EPA.
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I have posted this information or point a lot of times before, not in this thread I guess but quite often. (If you do not believe me, search for tesla + advice and aakee).
This is not a very new picture, but it came with a update of the software in model S. Read the bottom line.
Tesla have some battery information, its veryt old but the Lithium batteries still works about the same(we know from research) so most of it still is valid. Search for ”a bit about batteries”.
Sorry. That is very old. Why is it not there any longer? EPA?
So I humbly disagree with you on what you're saying. Old data is old data. I have the same Tesla fi data on my cars as you do on both of them since the beginning o when I got them and guess what my S doesn't have anyone close to me for over 100,000 mi.
My Model 3. I'm right in the middle and the difference between everybody is less than 3 mi. That's what's so funny. You're telling me that all those other people if they did better than me, that's their difference is one and a half miles. I don't get that. I kept my car a lot longer than the average person on my model 3. So I don't think that many people are going to experience what you're talking about.
And how many of those people got their car used and just put Tesla fi on it for the first time? Their cars might have been a beaten and abused beforehand. That's probably what the explanation is. Everyone has yet to learn your way.
Why not ask Tesla to put a button that says optimizing what my charging percentage should be based on my daily driving?
You have not made the legal argument of selling a car than less than EPA..... You can say you talked a lot about the EPA. That's one thing, but you're saying that if Tesla changed their recommendation that they wouldn't be able to sell cars. Then you throw up an old chart from a long time and don't answer the question.
It's wonderful to read about plating and charging voltages and all those things, but again, let's focus on really what we're talking about. Here is the suggestion of to our charging to a certain percentage. Now you're saying that that doesn't work and that the EPA won't allow them to sell cars because they'd have to change what their maximum ranges to only 50% of what they say it can do
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Not touching any more such disagreements with a 10' pole, it is just getting old IMHO but last sentence would not be a bad idea at all. Of course people will have to understand the limitations that come with engaging such a "magic button" so we would be back to square one. But, I for one would like that button and Tesla advise on how to optimize my battery life based on my driving.
Exactly. Determining what benefit. Well that might be like range mode. Who knows. For those that need that 1.5 extra miles it will help them. For others it may confuse. The button however is an easy way to say. I don't like that. Give it back to me.
Sure in time. Gas stations will decline just like the horse stables. Fast chargers will be abound..till then I continue to focus on adoption not pampering.
Don't ask about range mode.. Many
's ago.Until you are willing to share your BMS data and/or Teslafi data I am not willing to take your word on any numbers. So, we are not talking about 1.5mi difference but probably much higher. Does 15-25mi range difference just under 5 years is significant? What about 10 years, 20 years? 50K, 100K, 200K ... ? Well, yes to some and no to others. YMMVExactly. Determining what benefit. Well that might be like range mode. Who knows. For those that need that 1.5 extra miles it will help them. For others it may confuse. The button however is an easy way to say. I don't like that. Give it back to me.
Sure in time. Gas stations will decline just like the horse stables. Fast chargers will be abound..till then I continue to focus on adoption not pampering.
Don't ask about range mode.. Many
That’s a completely different thing.
Teslas approach is that it shall be very easy to own a EV.
The manual is very thin on battery technology, and how to preserve the battery.
We do not need to know anything, as Tesla takes care of this, for example will lithium batteries be destroyed from charging if the cells are sub freezing. We still can connect the car, and set the charging to commence. But the car will heat the battery and it will not be charged at all, until a bit above freezing.
Believing that for example 80 or 90% will cause the minimal degradation, as I have seen numerous posts about here at TMC, is one of the myths floating around.
Sure. 15-25 is significant, but get up to over 100k miles, and then. You're talking about what @AAKEE is going to help with. That's when it all gets smoothed out.
Edit add: Many of the threads are discussing around the first year and or 15k in mile. Why doesn't my car say I only have 295 mi when I'm supposed to have 315 miles? Why does my Tesla fi data show me that I have the worst of 35 other cars out there? Then I compare it to everybody else. Come here to the TMC forums, ask questions and then people answer with well it's the way you charge your car. Well that's true but that might just be affecting what you see on the car as other people have said. Not necessarily on what your real range is.
My teslafi data has been posted before. You seem to be so good at going into users history why don't you look it up @msinfo.
Recovering your range is a whole different topic @AlanSubie4Life is an expert on. Anyone that has 15 to 25 mi and range difference I would suggest needs to go through some of those exercises.
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AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
You are at 296rmi, 69.3kWh at 150k miles with a 2017 Model 3 RWD. 11% loss.
I am at 294rmi, 72kWh at 55k miles with a 2018 Model 3 Performance. 7.3% loss. The equivalent miles if my pack were in your vehicle would be: 294rmi*245/234 = 308rmi. (This is 7.5% lower than 333rmi, the extrapolated starting capacity of your pack if Tesla did not hide excess capacity (333rmi*234Wh/rmi = 77.9kWh))
308rmi - 296rmi = 12 rmi > 3 rmi
Addendum:
For the first 3+ years, I charged and stored the car (completely unnecessarily) to 80% or so (sadly!). So my vehicle is not an example of an “optimized” case. And of course I also have much lower mileage than you, so presumably that accounts for a small portion of your capacity loss too.
I actually think you have me confused with someone else. I don’t think most people should bother with trying to recover BMS estimated range because it won’t usually work, and it doesn’t change what your pack contains.
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That's not a completely thing when that's the case that you made in the previous post.
You go to the manual when you're suggesting that the EPA is the fault for Tesla. Not suggesting that they change their slider to 50% as recommended if you're not using it.
Maybe we're losing a little bit on the conversation, but my suggestion to charge at 80 or 90% whether it be 50% or anything less than 100% would be less than the EPA.
Calculating Your Battery's Estimated Capacity Using the Car's Energy Screen
Re posting here and making this a sticky post so it doesnt get lost. @AlanSubie4Life originally posted: =========================================== (originally posted by @AlanSubie4Life. Original thread this appeared in can be found here: ( 2021 model Y scan my Tesla battery size)...
teslamotorsclub.com
Wow then this must not be you then.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
That does not mention the word "recover" anywhere in the thread. It is not about "recovering" your range, or recalibrating the BMS estimate, at all.
Calculating Your Battery's Estimated Capacity Using the Car's Energy Screen
Re posting here and making this a sticky post so it doesnt get lost. @AlanSubie4Life originally posted: =========================================== (originally posted by @AlanSubie4Life. Original thread this appeared in can be found here: ( 2021 model Y scan my Tesla battery size)...
Wow then this must not be you then.
It is simply a means of determining your car's BMS's current estimate of your pack capacity (the method is accurate when the capacity is below the degradation threshold, a caveat which is not mentioned in that post (when pack capacity is greater, the method returns the degradation threshold of the vehicle in question)).
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(moderator comment)
Yes it was, and no you were not dreaming it.
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(not moderation content, not representing anyone other than jjrandorin the regular TMC member, not even "jjrandorin the moderator")
My own opinion on the topic of these range discussions is that I am happy that there are people who want to dig into this stuff, so I can read about it (or not) as I choose to, and listen (or not) as I choose to. Back when I had less of an idea about how these cars work (and stressed more about "the battery!!!!111!!!" like is common with many new EV owners), I consumed quite a lot of data about battery health, etc and much of it here on TMC.
Now that I have a better idea of how it all works, I am grateful that there are those who feel passion to talk about it, but I dont feel any real need to conform to what others might think is best for them, only whats best "for me".
I have seen many (many maaaannnnyyyy) new owners go down the battery rabbit hole here, and get all spun up about it, because they have some idea about "driving this car till the wheels fall off". I like taking good care of my stuff, but I also dont like to obsess about it. I have (2) tesla wall connectors in my garage, power shared on a 60amp circuit, for convenience and because I think they look cool, not because I actually need to charge them that fast.
I keep my wifes model Y at about a 60-70% charge, because she drives it mostly around town, and that works for me. I acknowledge that its entirely likely that if I kept it at a lower state of charge, there is a good chance it might have lower degradation after 4-5 years. With that being said, the car is driven an average of about 5k miles a year, and superchargers are plentiful around me, so if the car has 10 less miles of range after 5 years (made up number) it doesnt matter for our usage.
If a co worker asks me if they need to "manage the battery", I tell them "no, thats not necessary, you just set the percentage you want it to charge to and plug in overnight and let it charge". Its not necessary to "manage" any of all this, but if someone wants to, have at it, and I am grateful some do and share their info so I can choose (or not, as I said) to listen to it.
Yes it was, and no you were not dreaming it.
Nothing as complicated as that. I locked it for a bit to try to allow the conversation to cool down some, and then opened it back up after a short time out.
=================================
(not moderation content, not representing anyone other than jjrandorin the regular TMC member, not even "jjrandorin the moderator")
My own opinion on the topic of these range discussions is that I am happy that there are people who want to dig into this stuff, so I can read about it (or not) as I choose to, and listen (or not) as I choose to. Back when I had less of an idea about how these cars work (and stressed more about "the battery!!!!111!!!" like is common with many new EV owners), I consumed quite a lot of data about battery health, etc and much of it here on TMC.
Now that I have a better idea of how it all works, I am grateful that there are those who feel passion to talk about it, but I dont feel any real need to conform to what others might think is best for them, only whats best "for me".
I have seen many (many maaaannnnyyyy) new owners go down the battery rabbit hole here, and get all spun up about it, because they have some idea about "driving this car till the wheels fall off". I like taking good care of my stuff, but I also dont like to obsess about it. I have (2) tesla wall connectors in my garage, power shared on a 60amp circuit, for convenience and because I think they look cool, not because I actually need to charge them that fast.
I keep my wifes model Y at about a 60-70% charge, because she drives it mostly around town, and that works for me. I acknowledge that its entirely likely that if I kept it at a lower state of charge, there is a good chance it might have lower degradation after 4-5 years. With that being said, the car is driven an average of about 5k miles a year, and superchargers are plentiful around me, so if the car has 10 less miles of range after 5 years (made up number) it doesnt matter for our usage.
If a co worker asks me if they need to "manage the battery", I tell them "no, thats not necessary, you just set the percentage you want it to charge to and plug in overnight and let it charge". Its not necessary to "manage" any of all this, but if someone wants to, have at it, and I am grateful some do and share their info so I can choose (or not, as I said) to listen to it.
zoomer0056
Active Member
@AAKEE was making the suggestion that Tesla does not recommend where owners should keep their car charge to for the best battery health because if they did the EPA would count that as it's rated range. He responded with a chart of some old chart.
By his basis by recommending that the car be kept at 90, 80 or anything less than 100 would also suggest that his argument is kind of invalid because he thinks the EPA would give them a hard time.
Tesla does make the slider adjustable versus daily versus trip. I think we all know that. That hasn't affected what the range being sold at.
I think that he's confused that I don't agree with his scientific data. The scientific data might be correct, but I just disagree at the point at which it becomes affected to most people. I don't think it's the degree that everybody wants to make it here and the statistics are not there to back it up on long-term usage.
zoomer0056
Active Member
Im not trying to get into the back and forth here, but I believe I understand what @outdoors is saying. It appears to me that there was some discussion about Tesla range recommendations and EPA.
Without getting into the weeds on that part of the discussion, if a statement is being made that "Tesla does not recommend to owners where to charge their car because that would then be counted as EPA range", my response to that would be "something must have changed, because tesla is actually making that exact recommendation in the Tesla app now, in the US, as of about August of 2023, for both model 3 and model Y owners.
My Tesla app now has a specific recommendation of charging percentage in the app (a specific recommended percentage for each car). This is new, and somewhat unexpected, but it is true, as I see it in my Tesla app for both cars (and its a different recommendation for my model 3 vs my wifes model Y as well).
Without getting into the weeds on that part of the discussion, if a statement is being made that "Tesla does not recommend to owners where to charge their car because that would then be counted as EPA range", my response to that would be "something must have changed, because tesla is actually making that exact recommendation in the Tesla app now, in the US, as of about August of 2023, for both model 3 and model Y owners.
My Tesla app now has a specific recommendation of charging percentage in the app (a specific recommended percentage for each car). This is new, and somewhat unexpected, but it is true, as I see it in my Tesla app for both cars (and its a different recommendation for my model 3 vs my wifes model Y as well).
And Tesla hasn't had to change what they're rated range that they sell their cars now have they? If Tesla wants to make the suggestion to 50% then why don't they or like I said, give us a button to optimize based ones box they live in.
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