battery swapping confirmed - no more "mystery" announcement

[deonb]

Lots of gems here in this exclusive Reuters interview with Elon... much of the interview is on dealer issues, but, there is a good portion devoted to pack swap... it sounds as if he'll be slowly rolling these pack swaps out at Supercharger locations where they see sufficient "demand" at first -- investment should be $50-100 million, and, to the question: how fast will the swap be? Elon chuckles, "Quickly... really quickly" -- makes me think tonight's live demo will be impressive

I've transcribed the swapping portion of the original interview (the video above is compressed) over here:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...-no-more-quot-mystery-quot-announcement/page9

Post #90.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

@deonb

Elon says that the swapping will take something like less than 2 minutes to swap the battery (faster than you could fill a gas tank). Than it will be an electronic battery swapping rather than mechanical battery swapping?

That is to say fast DC charging?

 

[Royal TS(LA)]

To (almost) cite Sigmund Freud: "Sometimes a battery swap is just a battery swap" ;D .

I suspect the physical swap will be so simple and fast that you won't believe it happening. The concept of unifying distributed grid storage, renewable energy and EVs in this way is genius. I really couldn't care less what battery is in my car. As long as Tesla guarantees my promised mileage with the exchanged battery, I mean, come on, guys.. . No offense meant, but this whole "my battery" thing seems a bit like a fetish to me . You can bet on Tesla managing all issues transparently to you, so no worries.

 

[aviators99]

To (almost) cite Sigmund Freud: "Sometimes a battery swap is just a battery swap" ;D .

I suspect the physical swap will be so simple and fast that you won't believe it happening. The concept of unifying distributed grid storage, renewable energy and EVs in this way is genius. I really couldn't care less what battery is in my car. As long as Tesla guarantees my promised mileage with the exchanged battery, I mean, come on, guys.. . No offense meant, but this whole "my battery" thing seems a bit like a fetish to me . You can bet on Tesla managing all issues transparently to you, so no worries.

Fine with me, but I feel sorry for the person who gets my battery.

 

[Eggplant]

I really don't understand why people are so protective of their batteries. One of the great anxieties I have with this car is degradation of the battery over time. If Tesla will let me swap batteries out periodically and recycle the ones in the ecosystem that are too far gone that totally solves that problem.

I currently have a four year old hybrid with about 100k miles on it (while I wait for my tesla!) The battery is terrible at this point. I get 10 mpg less than I did when the battery was new. Swapping it out is an extremely expensive proposition, and affects the resale value of the car. If I could uncouple the battery from the car and just go in for a battery swap that would be grand.

 

[Martini]

To (almost) cite Sigmund Freud: "Sometimes a battery swap is just a battery swap" ;D .

I suspect the physical swap will be so simple and fast that you won't believe it happening. The concept of unifying distributed grid storage, renewable energy and EVs in this way is genius. I really couldn't care less what battery is in my car. As long as Tesla guarantees my promised mileage with the exchanged battery, I mean, come on, guys.. . No offense meant, but this whole "my battery" thing seems a bit like a fetish to me . You can bet on Tesla managing all issues transparently to you, so no worries.

People seem to consistently give a premium value to ownership when an economically-equivalent rental option is available. Call it mistrust or whatever, but we like to be in full control of our things. This is a tough bit of human nature to work against, so they have to make swapping very attractive (cheap and convenient) while guaranteeing that you will never be stuck with someone else's mistakes in the form of a bad battery (cue awesome battery warranty). I think Tesla can do all this, but time will tell.

The trick on the business side seems to be reducing the capital cost, and integrating swapping with stationary storage seems like a good way to do this.

 

[Royal TS(LA)]

I think the swapping infrastructure and the included automatic quality management of batteries could even help with refurbishing batteries. Let's say that Tesla detects at a swapping station that the battery you just had in your car has reached the threshold where it can't reliably provide the promised mileage. Then the battery can be taken out from the swapping cycle and automatically examined. Why? Because each single cell in the battery ages differently. If they have (dis)charging history logs about each single cell in the battery, Tesla can then use still working cells to create new battery packs. This should save quite some cost for Tesla. What do you think?

 

[deonb]

@deonb

Elon says that the swapping will take something like less than 2 minutes to swap the battery (faster than you could fill a gas tank). Than it will be an electronic battery swapping rather than mechanical battery swapping?

That is to say fast DC charging?

Well, it's down to 45 seconds now after Elon's tweet, and it's drive-through.

In the realm of future possibilities where there is a mechanical device that can swap a battery pack in 45 seconds vs. a Lithium battery that can handle a 40 C charge without instantly exploding (up from 1.5 C currently at the high-end 120kW SuperChargers), my money is on the battery swapper...

 

[scaesare]

^^^ this. I highly doubt there will be any faster charging. It's already dangerous to charge a li-ion battery as fast as Tesla is already doing. While they can mitigate some risks with cooling etc, they are still present. IMO (as a non-battery guru) anything faster would probably risk permanent damage to the batteries or worse.

(Emphasis mine)

Why do people keep saying this. Even the new 120KWh superchargers are charging at only 1.5C Not dangerous at all for a Li-ion cell... much less a thermally managed one.

We do this all the time in other consumer electronics equipment.

 

[NigelM]

I really don't understand why people are so protective of their batteries. One of the great anxieties I have with this car is degradation of the battery over time.

I think you answer yourself. If you're concerned about degradation then you might also be worried that you'll swap your "good" battery for an "older, not-so-good" one. I'm guessing that Tesla will explain more this evening, but for now it's easy to understand why folks might want to keep, or specifically get back, their own battery.

 

[Discoducky]

So couldn't a swapped battery just be meant for short term use in that the swapped battery might be geared toward only having a shorter (say 1 to 2 year life span) and thus could access *ALL* of the cells in the pack. It has been suggested that TM only uses about 70% of the pack so if the swapped packs are just meant to be used for just long trips you could potentially swap in a pack which could get close to 400 miles without doing much re-engineering for software and near zero hardware engineering.

Or, quickly meet the demand when introducing a new battery range.

 

[Eggplant]

I think you answer yourself. If you're concerned about degradation then you might also be worried that you'll swap your "good" battery for an "older, not-so-good" one. I'm guessing that Tesla will explain more this evening, but for now it's easy to understand why folks might want to keep, or specifically get back, their own battery.

Do people think Tesla will keep bad batteries at the swap stations? Why is the battery you bought with the car any better? That "good" battery will become "older, not-so-good" pretty quickly. If someone cares that much, then don't use the swap service for a few years until your battery degrades. Then enjoy getting a better one quick and easy on the cheap.

My point is, people shouldn't be attached to their battery. It's one of the parts that will wear out quickly. In a few years swapping the battery will likely get you a better one. We'll see what the pricing looks like on the Tesla plan soon, but if it's any better than thousands of dollars to swap out my battery for a new one (probably refurbished anyway) 4-6 years from now, I'll take it!

 

[mnx]

Only use 70% of the cells in the pack? I haven't seen that one yet.

On another note, I'm surprised that so many dislike the idea of battery swapping. The ability to swap the battery makes a great car even better. If you baby your pack by keeping it at 50% SOC good for you you'll probably not want to swap. If you're like the rest of us and plug it in daily in standard mode then not getting your pack is not a big deal at all.

Many have said that building out superchargers comes out of the marketing budget and that's what it mostly is. It helps to sell the car. I probably won't even get to try one out for another year, and yet I've greatly enjoyed the car in the mean time. I see the same thing here with building out swapping stations. I personally see them as a huge convenience for roadtrips. If I need to get something to eat, I'd stop to supercharge but if it's between meals then I'd prefer to pack swap and not have to wait ~30 mins (or however long it takes).

That said, I'd be surprised if pack swapping gets a widespread buildout. I doubt there will be pack swapping outside of the current in service superchargers within the next 3 years...

BTW any guesses on what this is going to cost? I'm willing to bet $100 or less per swap. (Making it similar to the cost of fueling up an ICE).

So couldn't a swapped battery just be meant for short term use in that the swapped battery might be geared toward only having a shorter (say 1 to 2 year life span) and thus could access *ALL* of the cells in the pack. It has been suggested that TM only uses about 70% of the pack so if the swapped packs are just meant to be used for just long trips you could potentially swap in a pack which could get close to 400 miles without doing much re-engineering for software and near zero hardware engineering.

Or, quickly meet the demand when introducing a new battery range.

 

[pilotSteve]

Since everything about this car/charging/battery system is controlled by software this is no limit to the kinds of innovative business models Tesla might introduce.

For example, "swap" batteries would be identified differently than "owned" batteries and therefore might be charged to higher levels because Tesla chose to depreciate them (financially) and their life span is better spent as "high performance" or longer range units.

Also as Tesla owned units they could be incrementally rebuilt (call banks replaced) that could be cost effective for the company yet not for an individual owner.

Most interested to hear tonight what the business model is and what the consumer benefits will be. Certainly the newsworthiness of such a spectacular announcement will help boost sales and deepen market penetration to new customers that "just now heard about Tesla with its fast charge battery". Hey, that all good business regardless of the actual technology used. IMO.

 

[Royal TS(LA)]

To get the most seamless EV-experience, customers should never ever have to concern themselves with technical details of a product IMHO. You want a car because you want to drive with it, right? Why should any customer care about messy hardware details?

 

[JRP3]

So couldn't a swapped battery just be meant for short term use in that the swapped battery might be geared toward only having a shorter (say 1 to 2 year life span) and thus could access *ALL* of the cells in the pack. It has been suggested that TM only uses about 70% of the pack

Don't know where that came from, Tesla uses all of the cells, they just limit the amount of charge and discharge percentage used of each cell.

 

[brianman]

Well, it's down to 45 seconds now after Elon's tweet, and it's drive-through.

I thought it was 47.

 

[Discoducky]

Don't know where that came from, Tesla uses all of the cells, they just limit the amount of charge and discharge percentage used of each cell.

How do you know they use all of the cells? That is protected IP. Assuming, for a moment, they don't use the packs full potential, therein lies the benefit of having a pack that could potentially be used in an accelerated state to drive several engineering goals.

 

[deonb]

How do you know they use all of the cells? That is protected IP. Assuming, for a moment, they don't use the packs full potential, therein lies the benefit of having a pack that could potentially be used in an accelerated state to drive several engineering goals.

That's fairly wild speculation...

If Tesla wanted you to carry unused cells in the car for some reason, they don't need to put it in the battery. They could just hand you a bag of cells that you can throw in the trunk.


I anyway always carry 2 18650's in the car to show people what they look like .

 

[ebbrey]

I anyway always carry 2 18650's in the car to show people what they look like .

My ecig uses 18650 battery. I have taken it out many times to explain cells in model s