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Be honest: is SCing on a long trip annoying?

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When it comes to @jerry33, you're all missing something. Normal rules don't apply to him. That's the most recent I could find, but even for someone like me, who has a pretty lean consumption at 298Wh/mi, his 248Wh/mi means he has to spend nearly 20% less time at the charger. For those drivers who burn up more electrons, or drive a Model X, forget jerrytime. You're going to be there longer.

And if you're wondering how he gets those consumption numbers, I've figured it out. He only drives with the tides. He uses the moon to draw his car back and forth to his destinations.
 
I think building 4 or 5 times as many superchargers would do more to make that happen than improvements to charging time or battery capacity.

Disagree.

Certainly range, charger speed, and charger quantity are all pieces of the same pie, but once the network is built out (whatever that looks like--imho it's charger locations every ~50 miles), more chargers will become by far the least important slice and will only act a stop loss to limit the time impact during peak travel. Minimal positive. Just less negative. The only reason it's even part of the conversation now is because a) the network isn't built out, and b) it's the only realistic lever tesla can pull to triage the situation.

It all comes down to time. Travel time is the only thing that's important when it comes to mass acceptance...and thus, EV success. While many here echo the "better rested" sentiment after a longer-than-ice tesla trip, that idea is a pretty big red herring. That's not to dismiss the concept btw, but rather frame it in context: it's really just a manifestation of human nature to try to focus on only the positives when one is in favor of something. All good, as long as we don't lose sight of the spade...

Time is a resource, and society is not standing on the precipice of some cultural evolution where people are willing to give up that resource for pretty much anything, let alone a trip to gramdma's or Disney world or wherever. While we tesla owners on the edge of the bell curve are willing to compromise that time resource for what we see as a net positive situation, most humans simply don't want to give it up, and there's no logic where they see it as a net positive. Let's not put the blinders on now--Until EV travel time is equal or less than all but the other edge of the bell curve of situations, EV travel will be inferior.

As such, it is imperative to increase both range (through efficiencies and capacity) and charging speed if EVs are going to win. Far more imperative than more charging stations.

Thankfully, progress is happening.
 
Disagree.

Certainly range, charger speed, and charger quantity are all pieces of the same pie, but once the network is built out (whatever that looks like--imho it's charger locations every ~50 miles), more chargers will become by far the least important slice and will only act a stop loss to limit the time impact during peak travel. Minimal positive. Just less negative. The only reason it's even part of the conversation now is because a) the network isn't built out, and b) it's the only realistic lever tesla can pull to triage the situation.

You just said that you disagreed with me, and then assumed away my whole point as if it had already occurred. Sure, once we get to the point where there are superchargers every 50 miles then building more superchargers won't be very important in the grand scheme. We are way off from having a supercharger every 50 miles though.
 
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As such, it is imperative to increase both range (through efficiencies and capacity) and charging speed if EVs are going to win. Far more imperative than more charging stations.

I don't know that I agree. EVs have so many other advantages that they only have to offer a competent solution on road trips to be adopted - and they do right now.

Yes, the Tesla road trip is a little longer than an ICE road trip driven straight through, and some folks will obsess over that. But you're also getting instant torque, self driving, OTA updates, smooth silence, minimal maintenance, and a full tank every morning.

Put something close to my Model X within reach of the average consumer, and you'll see plenty of demand, even with the current road trip situation.
 
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I don't know that I agree. EVs have so many other advantages that they only have to offer a competent solution on road trips to be adopted - and they do right now. Yes, the Tesla road trip is a little longer than an ICE road trip driven straight through, and some folks will obsess over that. But you're also getting instant torque, self driving, OTA updates, smooth silence, minimal maintenance, and a full tank every morning. Put something close to my Model X within reach of the average consumer, and you'll see plenty of demand, even with the current road trip situation.
Agreed, but while I think @bxr140 strongly overstates the importance of travel time ("the only thing that's important"), I do agree that minimizing travel time will rapidly increase acceptance. And adding interstitial Superchargers across the current network will really address that concern.

The first question people unfamiliar with EVs/Teslas ask me is "how far can you go on a charge," and the second is "how long does it take to charge?" So it's not unimportant.
 
The first question people unfamiliar with EVs/Teslas ask me is "how far can you go on a charge," and the second is "how long does it take to charge?" So it's not unimportant.

It's a little off topic here, but how do you usually answer the second?

So far I've generally ended up giving a five minute answer, because it varies so much and none of the hard answers are really relevant in the context of normal daily use...
 
It's a little off topic here, but how do you usually answer the second?

So far I've generally ended up giving a five minute answer, because it varies so much and none of the hard answers are really relevant in the context of normal daily use...

Do you mean the answer is "five minutes" or that the answer takes five minutes to explain?
 
It's a little off topic here, but how do you usually answer the second?
It's not a quick answer, but I try to make it as quick as possible. Mostly because people don't have the attention span or interest that we do. So it goes something like: "Almost always, it charges overnight while I sleep. In the infrequent instances I take long road trips, I spend anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour charging." At this point I draw a curve in the air and explain tapering and how you want to live in that first half of your range. Then I mention destination chargers, and if they haven't glazed over, I tell them how you handle being outside of the Supercharger network. I almost always pull up supercharge.info on my phone and show them coverage. That usually sells the Tesla charging network, especially once you zoom out and show the whole US.

So yeah. 5 minutes, you say? :)
 
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For people unfamiliar with Tesla or EVs in general who inevitably ask "how long does it take to charge?" I usually try to tell them that it might not be the most important a question to ask. I then explain that for general daily driving around town, you simply plug your Tesla in at home every night and you leave the house every day with a "full tank" and not worry about it -- unlike how you decide to fill up your ICE car only when the tank gets low. I think when people asking the "how long to charge" question realize they can think about EV charging differently this way, it reduces their concern that charging time might be a problem to worry about in the first place.

Of course for longer driving distances like road trips, the time it takes to charge IS a very important question and that takes a longer explanation...
 
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Ho hum... every supercharging stop has been like watching the grass grow... you'll NEVER get me to say I enjoy them any more than stopping for gas with an ICE except that they are free.... but time is worth MORE than money....It always has been... you can get more money.. but you ain't getting one more second of time... and the clock is always ticking.... I wanna roll..... 6222 miles and moving....

Ok, since it's only money and you can *alway* get more and time is worth so much more than money, you must only use your Tesla to have your drive get you to and from the helicopter pad if there isn't one on the roof of where you happen to be visiting. Are you saying you're annoyed because your helicopter cannot land within a range of a P100D? That's the only explanation as I assume you pay someone to charge your car to save time, only take helicopters and private jets to travel otherwise (this would provide you with the most time saved, be it at a huge money cost, but you can always get more money). :p

PS> An alternate, possibly cheaper solution to your problem if buy a fleet of identical P100D's, then pay people to leave ahead of you and just have a fully charged P100D at every supercharger ready for you. it will will allow you to trade the time you'd be charging for money you'll be spending on the P100D's and people to drive them to all superchargers, charge and wait for you. But you can always get more money but cannot get more time, so it's worth it.
 
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For Tesla to become comparable to ICE we need larger batteries and faster superchargers. Hopefully this should not take too long

Because so many things can negatively impact range, and do so more dramatically than ICE cars, I do think about a 400 mile EPA range would be ideal. However Elon has said they are stopping at 100 KWh for now with no immediate plans for anything more. The tech for batteries is the limiting factor. Tesla is getting about the highest energy density for production batteries available today and there is nothing better that will be ready for production anytime soon. There are higher density batteries in labs today, but it takes about 10 years from the discovery of a new chemistry to production and nothing in the lab today is suitable for production right now.

We will be getting more superchargers, I doubt we will be getting faster superchargers anytime soon. Tesla is already having problems with heat damage slowing superchargers in California. The faster the charge, the more heat is produced both in the batteries and in the supercharging equipment and heat kills. If you watch kmanauto on YouTube he supercharges a lot and he's been seeing a sharper decline in range with his 90D than he saw with his original 60. The batteries in the 90D have a bit of silicon added to the anode and one of the problems with silicon in Li-ion batteries is silicon anodes swell quite a bit when they absorb Li-ions which damages the battery cell. Tesla may be seeing some degradation in the 2nd generation cells with the silicon added when those batteries are supercharged frequently, or it may be kmanauto got a poor battery pack.

kmanauto has also said that since the introduction of firmware 8.0 he's seen supercharging rates drop to 80-100 Kw from 120+Kw before. It may be Tesla is throttling back the superchargers because cells are getting damaged from supercharging.

Every technology has limits. Pure electric vehicles are not as fast to fuel or as long range as ICE on road trips. It's about the only disadvantage. On my road trip to California I did get some frustratingly slow supercharge rates in California which slowed things down. In Oregon and Washington supercharging has not been an issue. I've always wanted to do something else like eat or nap when supercharging and the car is usually done before I am.

I find that while I may find my driving day a bit longer than driving an ICE, I also find I arrive at my destination with fewer aches and pains and not as wiped out. Being forced to stop and walk around a bit every 3-4 hours is actually good for my body and something I wouldn't do otherwise.
 
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It all comes down to time. Travel time is the only thing that's important when it comes to mass acceptance...and thus, EV success. While many here echo the "better rested" sentiment after a longer-than-ice tesla trip, that idea is a pretty big red herring. That's not to dismiss the concept btw, but rather frame it in context: it's really just a manifestation of human nature to try to focus on only the positives when one is in favor of something. All good, as long as we don't lose sight of the spade...

With public perception time is what people focus on. Thinking if they aren't moving down the road, they are wasting time. But most of the time people have a destination for a day's drive already decided before they leave. Or at least I always have. If you are stopping at a waypoint along the way, it usually doesn't matter if it took you 9 or 10 hours on the road to get there. Some people may be ambitious in their planning and want to cover 12 hours of miles in a day, but I've found when I've pushed it like that, I'm pretty much useless the next day.

With an EV, you have to change the way you think. In most ways, the improvements on your life are obvious. You trade off having to remember to plug the car in when you get home and the slight inconvenience of unplugging before you leave for never having to stop at a gas station. If you're driving your normal daily route, you are not going to have to "stop for gas" on the way home one or more times a week like you have to do with an ICE. Unless you have a pretty helacious commute, you can probably make the round trip daily on a single charge.

The daily advantages are obvious. The road trip advantages are not. And there are some situations where a Tesla is not suited for a road trip at this time. There are some places where you basically can't get to with an EV unless you want to sit for a half a day at a slow AC charger in the middle of nowhere. Those who do revel in the "iron butt" kind of traveling where you cover 1000 miles in a day will find the long stops to charge frustrating. But there are not many people who are physically up to marathon driving like that.

The supercharger network is not optimum today. One thing having superchargers every 50 miles will do is make a larger battery Tesla more useful. The first generation supercharger network was built for 60s and 70s to get around. 85s and 90s charge faster and don't have to spend as much time at superchargers, but you still have to take the down time to charge at the same distance you would have in a 60 because the car doesn't have the range to skip superchargers and charge at the next one.

When the network gets more filled out, it will be practical to take a 90 or 100 and drive it from 90% to 10% or less between superchargers, then have a meal while the car recharges. You lose time every time you have to slow down and stop, even if the charging stop is only 15 minutes, that's 15 minutes you weren't eating up the miles at 70 mph. When using close to the full range of a 90/100 KWh pack, that's when your body is going to want some downtime to rest and eat anyway and the supercharging happens in parallel.

The new supercharger in Santa Nella will be much better spaced for me than Harris Ranch and Manteca. On my last trip to California I had to stop at both Harris Ranch and Manteca because I didn't quite have the range to get from Atascadero to Manteca in one shot. If they build a supercharger just north of Sacremento, I can cover the Valley in legs better suited to my 90 KWh battery and make better time (assuming the superchagers work correctly).

The supercharger network is not laid out perfectly today, but it's getting better all the time. As for the time "lost" charging, some of it is real, but some is perception. It will be a stumbling block for EV acceptance until enough people make the paradigm shift.
 
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It's a little off topic here, but how do you usually answer the second?

So far I've generally ended up giving a five minute answer, because it varies so much and none of the hard answers are really relevant in the context of normal daily use...

When asked "how long does it take to charge," my usual answer is "five seconds." After their response, I explain "five seconds to plug in when I arrive home for the night, and the car is fully charged every morning when I leave."

If asked about long trips, I say something like "If you drive 600 miles per day nonstop, supercharging can add about an hour to your trip time. However, the charge stops make for a safer and more enjoyable trip."

So far, superchargers have not added any time to my trips (only three so far). I usually stop for a one hour meal and a few nature breaks anyway.

GSP
 
EVs have so many other advantages that they only have to offer a competent solution on road trips to be adopted...

While I personally agree with your assessment of what EVs have to offer, I think it illustrates a clear disconnect between the progressive/forward thinking population [of which we are a part] and what the general populous really thinks/feels/wants.

The average American driver simply won't put up with the time and inconvenience of current long distance EV travel.
 
The average American driver simply won't put up with the time and inconvenience of current long distance EV travel.

Apparently we have different perspectives on what the average American driver will do when confronted with a modern EV that's affordable. Since neither of us nor anyone on this board qualifies, I guess we'll have to wait and see - complicated by the fact that there is no such thing as normal/average, as demonstrated by the Air Force in the 1950s.
 
While I personally agree with your assessment of what EVs have to offer, I think it illustrates a clear disconnect between the progressive/forward thinking population [of which we are a part] and what the general populous really thinks/feels/wants.

The average American driver simply won't put up with the time and inconvenience of current long distance EV travel.
the average american driver rarely takes long road trips, I don't have a data source but the majority of people rarely drive over 100 miles or so a day.
 
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