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Bitcoin, Cryptocurrency and Blockchain Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Crowded Mind
- Start date
I’m experimenting with this now. Downloaded Crypto.com and set it up (expect to provide SS#, etc). It’s analogous to a brokerage. You transfer money (e.g., via ACH) to your “fiat wallet”. You can buy crypto (e.g. Bitcoin) and put those in your “crypto wallet”. Buy/sell to your heart’s content (transfer between wallets), all within the crypto exchange. Transfer from fiat wallet back to bank via ACH.
Haven’t tried purchasing with Bitcoin yet.
My understanding is there’s another step where you establish (through another app) an offline crypto wallet for uber-security. Credit/debit/ATM cards also available.
SomeJoe7777
Marginally-Known Member
The carbon footprint and energy waste of BTC is a legitimate problem. However, ohter blockchains are doing something about it.
BTC and ETH rely on the POW (Proof of Work) model, whereby you win the right to add a block to the blockchain by solving a mathematical problem. The incentive to add a correct block to the blockchain is the energy expenditure required. If your proposed block that you want to add to the blockchain is found to be fradulent, the chain will ignore it and use someone else's correct block instead, causing you to waste energy for nothing. This is what keeps the blockchain honest.
Many other coins are now using a different system for this called the POS (Proof of Stake) model. You must invest money on the blockchain to have a small chance of being allowed to add a block to the blockchain. The chances you have of being selected to add the next block is proportional to your monetary stake that you have stored on the blockchain. Attempting to add a fradulent block to the blockchain will cause you to lose part of your stake (called slashing).
POS systems do not burn the wasteful energy that POW systems do, any computer can create a new block and have it added to the chain very easily, but you will lose money if your proposed block isn't correct. POS systems also can have very fast block times (thus quick transactions) because a difficult and lengthly math problem does not have to be solved. Finally, POS systems can reward people for having money invested in the blockchain, some newer coins are giving small rewards to anyone who is holding them, in lieu of rewarding only the miners in POW systems.
ETH is currently a POW system and burns energy just like BTC. However, Ethereum 2.0 is scheduled to be deployed in the next year or so, and will convert ETH to a POS system. I don't know enough about the innards of BTC to speculate on whether it can also be converted to POS, but my guess is no.
For a good read on the comparison of the two systems, check here: https://www.algorand.com/what-we-do/technology/pure-proof-of-stake
BTC and ETH rely on the POW (Proof of Work) model, whereby you win the right to add a block to the blockchain by solving a mathematical problem. The incentive to add a correct block to the blockchain is the energy expenditure required. If your proposed block that you want to add to the blockchain is found to be fradulent, the chain will ignore it and use someone else's correct block instead, causing you to waste energy for nothing. This is what keeps the blockchain honest.
Many other coins are now using a different system for this called the POS (Proof of Stake) model. You must invest money on the blockchain to have a small chance of being allowed to add a block to the blockchain. The chances you have of being selected to add the next block is proportional to your monetary stake that you have stored on the blockchain. Attempting to add a fradulent block to the blockchain will cause you to lose part of your stake (called slashing).
POS systems do not burn the wasteful energy that POW systems do, any computer can create a new block and have it added to the chain very easily, but you will lose money if your proposed block isn't correct. POS systems also can have very fast block times (thus quick transactions) because a difficult and lengthly math problem does not have to be solved. Finally, POS systems can reward people for having money invested in the blockchain, some newer coins are giving small rewards to anyone who is holding them, in lieu of rewarding only the miners in POW systems.
ETH is currently a POW system and burns energy just like BTC. However, Ethereum 2.0 is scheduled to be deployed in the next year or so, and will convert ETH to a POS system. I don't know enough about the innards of BTC to speculate on whether it can also be converted to POS, but my guess is no.
For a good read on the comparison of the two systems, check here: https://www.algorand.com/what-we-do/technology/pure-proof-of-stake
mekberg
Member
If you're going to hold a significant amount of Bitcoin I highly recommend a hierarchical deterministic hardware wallet with a mnemonic seed backup.
Thanks! When I figure out what the hell that means, I’ll do it.
mekberg
Member
What are Hierarchical Deterministic (HD) Wallets? | LedgerThanks! When I figure out what the hell that means, I’ll do it.
TL;DR- crypto funds are sent to public addresses. HD wallets generate N number of public addresses and private keys from a single seed. Mnemonic seeded wallets use 12 or 24 words to generate the seed. These words can then be stored to recover your funds in the event that your wallet is broken, lost, stolen, or you simply forgot the password.
In order of preference:
BitBox02
Trezor
Ledger
And you can back up your mnemonic with something like this: Billfodl: The Only Scientifically Tested Recovery Seed Backup
Thanks! When I figure out what the hell that means, I’ll do it.
Or we can get Elon to open a Bitcoin bank:- The Bank of Tesla?
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Worth it to me so I don't have to think about everything involved with directly owning Bitcoin and being able to trade it quickly.
Gonna rant a little. Now with crypto getting exposure, so many people are starting to talk about Bitcoin. Youtubers, twitters, forum members etc. And they think that they have figured out something that all crypto commonity must have missed, Bitcoin no workie because deflation, Bitcoin no workie because chinacoin, Bitcoin no workie because energy etc. Like we haven’t heard these arguments every months for the last decade. Like the genius who came up with the idea and implemented it all by himself never considered this. Like they are smarter than all the people before them.
Today I heard DaveT saying that Tesla bough in early in Bitcoin. Sure, there is a lot more that will happen, but so much has already happened. Before the first valuation of Bitcoin ever happened someone said like “just imagine that one day these might be worth 10M dollars each”. The first price was set to 1337, that is $1=1337BTC. Today we are around $45000:1BTC. On a log scale Bitcoin only have two more magnitudes to grow to reach that imagined number. If we count the 0->1/1337 step, which imo was the hardest, as one step, it has grown more than 7 magnitudes since. So on a log scale Bitcoin has completed 8/10 steps. We are in the lategame of Bitcoin, newcomers seem to act as if Bitcoin is something new and untested, when in fact it is already battle hardened and extensively tested.
If you are just now catching up with Bitcoin, before you start saying why it is bad or why it cannot work, please try to first read the wiki, the faq, watch some Eric Voorhees or Andreas Antonopoulus video, read Digital Gold book etc. Then when you have some basic understanding you can start to argue for or against, why it can or cannot, what will or will not happen.
Today I heard DaveT saying that Tesla bough in early in Bitcoin. Sure, there is a lot more that will happen, but so much has already happened. Before the first valuation of Bitcoin ever happened someone said like “just imagine that one day these might be worth 10M dollars each”. The first price was set to 1337, that is $1=1337BTC. Today we are around $45000:1BTC. On a log scale Bitcoin only have two more magnitudes to grow to reach that imagined number. If we count the 0->1/1337 step, which imo was the hardest, as one step, it has grown more than 7 magnitudes since. So on a log scale Bitcoin has completed 8/10 steps. We are in the lategame of Bitcoin, newcomers seem to act as if Bitcoin is something new and untested, when in fact it is already battle hardened and extensively tested.
If you are just now catching up with Bitcoin, before you start saying why it is bad or why it cannot work, please try to first read the wiki, the faq, watch some Eric Voorhees or Andreas Antonopoulus video, read Digital Gold book etc. Then when you have some basic understanding you can start to argue for or against, why it can or cannot, what will or will not happen.
Argumentum ab auctoritate/ab verecundiam is as much a logical fallacy as any other.
mblakele
FSD Beta (99)
This exhortation might work better if you provided links.
mblakele
FSD Beta (99)
That’s a start — thanks. But you also mentioned a wiki, a faq, and a book?
Yes, I could google and maybe find them. But if you want your audience to read particular documents, it’s a good idea to link them isn’t it?
Just thinking to myself about Bitcoin (as many have the last few days) and would love to bounce this off you guys for my own sanity. Presumably, the endgame is for Bitcoin to become a major global currency, not a niche “product” for technoheads. It seems to me that the advantages of crypto that are most extolled would only kick in if Bitcoin was as simple to use as any other fiat currency for almost any transaction you could make. (The lack of inflation, confidential transactions, ease of international trade etc….) I’d assume there would have to be reasonably easy access to Bitcoin for much of the world’s population for it to be as widely accepted as many feel it’s going to be.
To reach that level of fluidity, I’d assume Bitcoin’s value would have to be at least a couple orders of magnitude greater than today just to be able to effect the sheer “dollar value” of transactions necessary to run at that scale.
All good so far, but this is where I see the issue. Basically, by the time that the wider financial world, especially the uber wealthy, truly take interest and stake, there are already early players who’ll be absolutely dominant forces. A quick look at bitinfocharts.com shows the top 25 bitcoin wallets holding about 1364000 bitcoin. Even at today’s (low) prices that’s about 24 Trillion dollars. Now imagine the value of those accounts if Bitcoin’s buying power goes up even one order of magnitude. We’re getting to “all the wealth on earth” levels here. I don’t see how the Davos set, much less world governments are going to stand for that.
Let me know what I’m missing here, or if the thought is that early Bitcoin adopters are simply going to be able to walk into the role of global financial powerhouses just by being early into the game?
EDIT: massive mistake in my math on the 24 Trillion!! Not sure what happened there. Oh well, add a couple extra orders of magnitude of Bitcoin growth and some of the same concerns still apply. Those 25 accounts still control 5% of all possible Bitcoin.
To reach that level of fluidity, I’d assume Bitcoin’s value would have to be at least a couple orders of magnitude greater than today just to be able to effect the sheer “dollar value” of transactions necessary to run at that scale.
All good so far, but this is where I see the issue. Basically, by the time that the wider financial world, especially the uber wealthy, truly take interest and stake, there are already early players who’ll be absolutely dominant forces. A quick look at bitinfocharts.com shows the top 25 bitcoin wallets holding about 1364000 bitcoin. Even at today’s (low) prices that’s about 24 Trillion dollars. Now imagine the value of those accounts if Bitcoin’s buying power goes up even one order of magnitude. We’re getting to “all the wealth on earth” levels here. I don’t see how the Davos set, much less world governments are going to stand for that.
Let me know what I’m missing here, or if the thought is that early Bitcoin adopters are simply going to be able to walk into the role of global financial powerhouses just by being early into the game?
EDIT: massive mistake in my math on the 24 Trillion!! Not sure what happened there. Oh well, add a couple extra orders of magnitude of Bitcoin growth and some of the same concerns still apply. Those 25 accounts still control 5% of all possible Bitcoin.
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Having watched these videos there is a certain jargon and mindset that Crypo is perfect, and should not be questioned.
One the contrary everything should be questioned, if you have heard the questions before, just ignore them.
in particular the label "fiat currency" is a loaded term, currency is currency we all know what is is, there is no need to attach a label to currency to try to create a negative connotation. We all understand currency, both the good and the bad,
As for Crypto itself I admire a lot of aspects of it, it is cleverly designed, and will be the future of currency.
I also admit Bitcoin is hard to disrupt, and other coins may be hard to disrupt.
But we are all free to express our opinions, this thread isn't an exercise in waving the flag.
Feel free to put me on ignore if you don't like contrary opinions..
Reddit User Who Leaked Tesla's Bitcoin Investment News Was Just High
And then to think that mods were scolded yesterday for moving this 'hugely important news' about a 'Tesla insider' from the main thread to the bitcoin thread.
And then to think that mods were scolded yesterday for moving this 'hugely important news' about a 'Tesla insider' from the main thread to the bitcoin thread.
The videos are 7 years old. Back then it was a very small community of dreamers and not a techno tour de force as it is now. And they were facing attacks nonstop, so maybe they needed to adopt a jargon to motivate people to stay in the cult. Nobody though Bitcoin was perfect, just that it was a lot better than fiat currency. It was a fun social experiment to see if a few crypto geeks could change the world for the better, not a get rich quick scheme as it became a few years later.
People have questioning crypto the whole time, some of the same people still do. See Schiff for example, he still haven’t changed his mind.
And Bitcoin has always been open for anyone to fork it and try to improve it. It is very open to criticism and unlike fiat it is not forcing anyone to use it.
mekberg
Member
If you want to know why Tesla put a portion of their balance sheet into Bitcoin watch this video with Gali and Michael Saylor.
TL;DW - US money printer go brrrrrrrr and you lose 15% of purchasing power per year. Cash is trash.
TL;DW - US money printer go brrrrrrrr and you lose 15% of purchasing power per year. Cash is trash.
Inflation is not going up tho. Some people say it's because deflation was going to be bad without the money printer. I think it's because automation/productivity fixed the inflation problem.
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