Bitcoin, Cryptocurrency and Blockchain Discussion Thread

[capster]

Sure. I use an online bank (monzo) I get statements on my phone. AFAIK they have zero ATMs and zero premises. Why are we suddenly pretending every bank is like a bank from 1930 in order to justify the energy use of btc? This is the kind of rhetoric that TSLAQ use when they pretend all supercharging energy comes from coal. It just reinforces my belief that crypto has become a cult, that its supporters cannot look at objectively.
I remain convinced this is a BAD move by Tesla, and seriously hurts their environmental credentials, which until now were untouchable.

I appreciate and generally agree with your criticisms given what little I know about bitcoin and blockchain. Here are a couple of points to consider though:

* Tesla is very good at making things that are not energy efficient more efficient.

* We may be entering an era of abundant clean energy in which Tesla has both mission and pecuniary interests. Here I’m thinking about the "Superpower" idea from Seba’s RethinkX:

Having said that, I don’t actually get Tesla’s bitcoin strategy.

Maybe it’s because I’m skeptical that any means of storing value can become a currency qua currency unless it is backed by a standing army.

Where I stand is that I trust Musk and Tesla so I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

tl;dr: BTC? Eh. HODL.

 

[lklundin]

Wow! The first poster here who actually knows what Blockchain is. There is a reason why the most security conscious entities around the world are flocking to Blockchain and a handful of [mostly Israeli] advanced data security providers.

Bitcoin is very secure.To find out for yourself, lose your authentication trail.
Biometrics come close, but several layers are required and it's not as adaptable to institutional application.

Tesla knows, of that we may be certain.

Also, biometrics are to be avoided because they are not revocable (e.g. if a criminal copies and abuses your fingerprint, you can't just have a new one issued).

 

[ZeApelido]

Saw a rumor online that Tesla bought $1.5B BTC at $35,655 for a total of 42,069 coins.

Me, lol

https://twitter.com/data_ev/status/1358793860248264704

 

[Budding]

The person who posted on Reddit about the purchase has now gone and edited all previous comments to link to the same youtube video. I guess since they felt now that his/her job might be in jeopardy.

 

[ZeApelido]

In the past day of BTC fiasco, what I learned most was that I, too, should be called a "Rocket Scientist".

B.S. in Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering

 

[Mo City]

Ok, this enters Blockchain specifics rather than Bitcoin or other alt-currencies. With Blockchain Institutional the client can define the authentication level to a large extent. For some uses it is even more extensive than is that of Bitcoin, for others it can be less. Blockchain sells this as 'military grade' but it is, I am informed, well above typical military use. Tesla, for example, could define specific uses in the factory OS, any other system and the entire car fleet. It is quite possible to have each vehicle possess specific encrypted credentials, each Supercharger and so on. The questions are mostly about the tremendous operating overhead that such authentication systems create.

In sum, Blockchain is great if security outweighs speed and efficiency. In future-proofing terms, the faster computing becomes the faster authentication happens. The faster authentication happens the more quickly someone can compromise the system. That is oversimplifying the issue, of course.

When Starlink has >5,000 transmitters in space and millions of receivers/transmitters on earth there are new encryption issues. It's not coincident that telecoms firms are among the most advanced data security firms on earth. Now consider the Tesla fleet growing by >1,000,000 per year, all of which both receive and transmit data. Then consider the factories and major suppliers, >500 right now and growing exponentially. All that means data security requirements are becoming gigantic.

Blockchain and myriad other less public alternatives are crucial to Tesla survival. Bitcoin can play an important role in advancing that. It's good PR too, and having customers use it can teach Tesla a lot.

Wisely, Elon talks up only the Cryptocurrency hype even though that is the little part of the story.

I would love to hear Elon or Tesla specify blockchain technology is the real focus instead of Bitcoin.

 

[generalenthu]

I was reading this article on Andy Jassy who is succeeding Bezos. One of the questions he was asked was about the lessons he learnt on strategy while at Amazon. Somewhat surprisingly he went very far back to 2003 or thereabouts when Amazon was solely seller of merchandise and did not operate a marketplace where anyone could sell their wares. Meanwhile growth at alternate sites was significant, particularly at eBay.

Amazon's senior management hated the idea of marketplaces, because they cannot quality control the goods, cant promise reliability, and they're putting the Amazon brand on the line. Ultimately, they decided to be there and deal with it rather than be a bystander in the ecommerce space. Andy's lesson was:

Do Not Fight Gravity.

Bringing this back to Tesla, I detest the energy intensity of the BTC miners, and the shady transactions it enables by way of mixers, etc., though arguably all these can still be traced back in some ways. And Bitcoin is here to stay. It has gone thru multiple boom bust cycles and has come out stronger. Its now accepted in the mainstream (You can buy it on the exchange, pay taxes on gains for a long time now, and access them via mainstream apps). What did not kill it has made it stronger.

So instead of being a bystander, get a seat at the table. If your mission is sustainable energy and if there is a dirty hog gobbling up our carbon budgets, and if it wont die, better work with it to reform, than against it. Some may say its a bargain with the devil, but you play the hand you're dealt. I would not be surprised if this leads Tesla to design their own BTC mining ASICs that use zero or negatively priced renewable energy in California to put the dirty Chinese miners out of business. Perhaps a home HVAC / water heater that uses waste heat from crypto mining.

Anyways, there is a lot to chew on if one sets aside their preconceived notions, which I certainly had until last year.

 

[StealthP3D]

Bitcoin manufacture is wasteful and too often uses dirty energy. The process seems to be very inefficient.

Yes, gold has the same problem - it is very dirty and energy intensive to mine and refine it. It takes a lot of effort and resources just to get an ounce of the stuff. Yet some short-sighted people want to use it to back all of our U.S. Currency.

Just think what a great store of value gold would be if you could just put your flip-flops on and easily pick it up off the beach without burning a drop of oil or electricity or needing to refine the metal! We would all be so rich we wouldn't need to work anymore and if anyone ever ran out of gold they could just go pick more up off the beach. A tremendous store of value!

Why can't they make Bitcoin work like that?

/s

 

[Johan]

Yes, gold has the same problem - it is very dirty and energy intensive to mine and refine it. It takes a lot of effort and resources just to get an ounce of the stuff. Yet some short-sighted people want to use it to back all of our U.S. Currency.

Just think what a great store of value gold would be if you could just put your flip-flops on and easily pick it up off the beach without burning a drop of oil or electricity or needing to refine the metal! We would all be so rich we wouldn't need to work anymore and if anyone ever ran out of gold they could just go pick more up off the beach. A tremendous store of value!

Why can't they make Bitcoin work like that?

/s

Great analogy. When people talk this way about BTC it reminds me of how my 6 year old son doesn't quite get why you can't just print more money so no one has to be poor. I showed him photos of people with wheelbarrels full of D-marks in the hyperinflation era in Germany after WW1 and how it didn't matter how many million you had you still couldn't buy a loaf of bread because all the money was good for was making a fire...

 

[Matias]

The amount of dollars vs the amount of bitcoins

 

[Matias]

I don’t understand how anyone who sees the amount of dollars created lately can say we’re not in trouble.

 

[Matias]

Since Bitcoin exists and it's going to be mined until the maximum number of coins are "found" does Tesla buying Bitcoin actually increase any mining and emissions?

Mining doesn’t stop after all the coins are mined. It is still needed to validate the blocks. But after all the coins are created miners reward comes from transaction fees only.

 

[2daMoon]

Get yer Chicken Genius angle here ...

 

[cusetownusa]

Get yer Chicken Genius angle here ...

Interesting...so to him this moves reinforces his decision to stay invested in TSLA versus investing more into Bitcoin.

This is something I am grappling with now...I have never invested in Bitcoin and never had any intentions to; however, with Tesla getting involved it has me thinking if I should buy bitcoin as well. I am not even sure where to start if I were to do such a thing...or if just by owning TSLA I am now reasonably invested indirectly with bitcoin.

 

[JRP3]

GBTC seems like a good way to get exposure to Bitcoin while not actually holding any. You can easily buy and sell it like a stock.

 

[cusetownusa]

GBTC seems like a good way to get exposure to Bitcoin while not actually holding any. You can easily buy and sell it like a stock.

Thanks...I have heard of that but wasn't sure if it was as "effective" as owning the real thing.

 

[JRP3]

It tracks fairly closely.

 

[mekberg]

It tracks fairly closely.

Beware the 2% fees.

 

[TheTalkingMule]

Been asked 10000x, but where's the best place to buy and hold both BTC and Dogecoin? Can I use Dogecoin for anything? Like tips or supporting TMC-esque sites?

 

[AudubonB]

Mining doesn’t stop after all the coins are mined. It is still needed to validate the blocks. But after all the coins are created miners reward comes from transaction fees only.

So - all those processors (or some of them, anyway), are still going to be churning through the kWhs. What are their incentives to do such validation? Will it still be the case that the fastest, or the one with the otherwise most oomph, will be the early bird getting the worm?