Bitcoin, Cryptocurrency and Blockchain Discussion Thread

[Knightshade]

Recent info. Stop putting words that I did not say.

How is their most recent quarterly filing NOT recent info?

You asked for a source on my statement regarding Teslas BTC holdings. I provided one.

You told me you don't trust it. I pointed out it links/cites directly to Teslas filings with the SEC and asked if you don't trust that either.

Now you're moving the goalposts to they're "old"....or something... even though they exactly confirm the exact numbers I cited for the exact date I cited.

 

[Knightshade]

I guess I have to check it myself since you seem to misunderstand my question

How did I "misunderstand" it when I directly answered it? You just kept trying to not like the answer.

So Tesla hasn't sold or bought BTC

Except it has, in fact, sold off the vast majority of its bitcoin. As cited to you already.

They didn't sell any MORE in the past quarter- but they have significant losses on the overall investment at this point. Even WITH the recent rise in its price.

but still holds 9720 BTC, about 244 million.

Indeed... and since they were at ~140 million cumulative loss end of 2022 that still leaves them with a very significant net loss that would require roughly another $10,000 per BTC rise in price to get back to breakeven overall.

Just as I told you in the first place.

 

[dm28997]

CPI rate along with bank troubles seem to be making BTC rise. As they say, it is what it is.

Bitcoin price breaks $26K as US inflation comes in at 6%

The CPI rose less than 0.5% last month, according to new United States Department of Labor data.

cointelegraph.com

 

[Knightshade]

CPI rate along with bank troubles seem to be making BTC rise. As they say, it is what it is.

Bitcoin price breaks $26K as US inflation comes in at 6%

The CPI rose less than 0.5% last month, according to new United States Department of Labor data.

cointelegraph.com

BTC rose 1.09% today.

TSLA of course rose 5.03% today.

Much like the 1 year, 5 year, and max-year performance charts where TSLA beats BTC on every one.

It is, indeed, what it is.

 

[daniel]

And ETH, BTC and others continue to climb rapidly.

They climb rapidly, and they fall rapidly. That's the definition of volatile. You can gain or lose a lot, depending on your timing. Right now it's going up. We never hear from the crypto enthusiasts when it's going down.

And yes, the anti crypto crowd should not bother with it.

The problem with crypto is that it makes life a little (or sometimes a lot) easier for criminals, from big-time drug lords, to human slavers, to ransomeware hackers. It makes it easier to move money without being noticed. And its market price is entirely at the whim of people who have no intention of ever using it as currency, but who buy it hoping to sell it later for more than they paid. Which is the definition of a bubble.

Note that while you're holding shares of Tesla, Tesla is actively making money by building cars (and other stuff). It's a productive investment. While you're holding crypto, it's doing nothing but sitting in a computerized ledger while the market price goes up or down. It produces nothing. It's nothing but a speculation, the hope of getting something for nothing.

 

[dm28997]

Happy to see some posts were removed so I will unblock those posters and try again to communicate.

Short sellers are making large gains on bank stocks and now the banking problems are coming to the EU.
I am trying to contemplate the root causes and don't need to find scapegoats, I leave that to the politicians. Tony Seba is worth reviewing as he explains what is going on with the paradigm shift and it is rapid.
HODL Tesla, you bet. I like buying ETH and BTC as a place to park assets that require fiat $ for the exchange. Today BTC is trading above 24k while banks are not doing well. Again I don't want to argue about crypto and respect alternative beliefs and I have mine.
I like the saying One mans junk is another mans treasure. I suppose I could park some cash in artwork, real estate,coins or stamps but they are not liquid. In addition it is like doing stock options and I can take a loss for tax harvesting and buy back without a 30 day rule(don't believe that will last, long and short term gains are taxed normally) In any case it is only 0.8% of my portfolio and I intend to increase that to 1.25% on any dips. I also like the fact that I can transact in seconds with anyone and it is totally transparent on the blockchains and the FBI loves that. I read that criminals don't use crypto much because it can be easily traced. Most people using it do so for security. I also have crypto and cash in my wallet(my own bank). I don't mind if I lose money here which reminds me of my initial investment in TSLA. My investment strategy only applies to me and like an airplane autopilot it is constantly correcting to stay on course.
Again this is my opinion and not investment advice as I could be very wrong.
I wonder if crypto could be an international currency in the future. Some people are sending crypto to the Ukrainians.

Ukraine officially legalises crypto after Zelenskyy signs new law

The new law sets out a regulatory framework for crypto assets for the first time.

www.euronews.com

 

[Knightshade]

Short sellers are making large gains on bank stocks and now the banking problems are coming to the EU.
I am trying to contemplate the root causes and don't need to find scapegoats, I leave that to the politicians. Tony Seba is worth reviewing as he explains what is going on with the paradigm shift and it is rapid.
HODL Tesla, you bet. I like buying ETH and BTC as a place to park assets that require fiat $ for the exchange. Today BTC is trading above 24k while banks are not doing well.

I guess I don't understand how you think "parking money in crypto" helps you any with a bank that might be struggling.

SVB struggled so much they went out of business. But everyone who had actual money deposited there will be getting back 100% of that actual money. They won't lose a thing.

And they weren't storing it there as any sort of high yield investment- it was there as operating cash.

I suppose I could park some cash in artwork, real estate,coins or stamps but they are not liquid. In addition it is like doing stock options and I can take a loss for tax harvesting and buy back without a 30 day rule(don't believe that will last, long and short term gains are taxed normally) In any case it is only 0.8% of my portfolio and I intend to increase that to 1.25% on any dips. I also like the fact that I can transact in seconds with anyone and it is totally transparent on the blockchains and the FBI loves that.

Again you can do the same with actual cash. And without the exorbitant transaction or conversion fees of crypto.

Or worrying about any exchange, which is NOT FDIC insured, just vanishing your "money"

Even better, if someone defrauds you out of actual money you have easy recourse to recover 100% of it. If someone does that with your crypto it's gone forever with no recourse because transactions aren't reversible by any authority or payment processor like they are with actual real money.

I read that criminals don't use crypto much because it can be easily traced.

Crypto Crime Hit All-Time High of $20.6B in 2022: Chainalysis

Kim Grauer, the blockchain sleuthing firm's head of research, told CoinDesk TV sanctioned activity and hacking were the driving forces behind the rise in illicit transaction volumes last year.

www.coindesk.com

Crypto crime accounted for a record-setting $20.6 billion worth of blockchain transactions in 2022

Most people using it do so for security.

Which is weird- because as I just explained you have no recourse at all against fraud, like someone transacting in real money does. So how is it "secure" compared to real currency?

I wonder if crypto could be an international currency in the future.

Not really, since it's so horribly worse than actual money in almost every way.

Some people are sending crypto to the Ukrainians.

Sure.

Some are also sending starlink dishes and other physical objects.

And many many many more than either are sending actual money.

 

[dm28997]

So it appears the fiat currency is 800 times more used than crypto by criminals. Too transparent for criminals to use.

Fiat Is Used In Money Laundering 800x More Than Crypto

Money laundering has been one of the points used by crypto critics to give the technology a negative coloration.

www.tap.global

It is secure in that no one can do a bank run on my wallet.

 

[Knightshade]

So it appears the fiat currency is 800 times more used than crypto by criminals.

I mean, real money is used legally far more than 800 times more as actual money more than crypto.

So that kinda hurts your argument if it's "only" 800x more for crime.

It is secure in that no one can do a bank run on my wallet.

As we just saw, nobody can do one on your actual money either. Everyone with real money at SVB is getting 100% of that money. No losses at all to those folks.

Now the difference between that and crypto is if you had your crypto stored at an exchange and THAT went out of business, you almost certainly WOULD have lost "money"- maybe all of it.

Same as if you had it in a cold wallet and someone found your private key.

Plus, if anyone ever steals your crypto via fraud- that money is gone too.


Versus actual real money in a bank where if you're the victim of fraud-- or someone just gets your account info and steals the money- you file a fraud claim and you get your money back.


So thanks for providing yet more examples where Crypto is objectively worse than actual money in virtually every circumstance.

 

[dm28997]

From article
Fiat Is Used In Money Laundering 800x More Than Crypto is one quote;

It appears to me you responded so quickly like a bot or did not read the article misinterpretation again.

"The assertions by Messari and Europol go on to reveal that fiat is used in money laundering 800 times more than crypto. And in more contrast to Mnuchun’s opinion, fighting money laundering and financial related crimes is proving more productive when crypto is involved."

 

[Knightshade]

From article
Fiat Is Used In Money Laundering 800x More Than Crypto is one quote;

It appears to me you responded so quickly like a bot or did not read the article misinterpretation again.

"The assertions by Messari and Europol go on to reveal that fiat is used in money laundering 800 times more than crypto. And in more contrast to Mnuchun’s opinion, fighting money laundering and financial related crimes is proving more productive when crypto is involved."

Once again you tell me I didn't understand, then confirm what I already said.

Fiat money is used generally and legally as currency far more often than 800x crypto.

So the fact it's "only" used 800x more criminally means it's used proportionately less


Though it's kind of cherry picking that you cite money laundering since that so often starts with PHYSICAL cash....as your own link notes most crime involving crypto are other things like:

cybercrime, tax evasion, extortion, ransomware, illicit drugs, and human trafficking

If you compared real money to crypto for those crimes you probably get a ratio less than 800:1- you're welcome to find a source to clarify though.

 

[dm28997]

If you compared real money to crypto for those crimes you probably get a ratio less than 800:1- you're welcome to find a source to clarify though.

Is that your answer or is that your opinion? I just gave you a link and you disagree with them. Your opinions are just that.

 

[daniel]

The Slate Money podcast did an excellent piece on why banks are struggling right now, and what killed SVB: Interest rate hikes and long-term bonds:

Say a bank (like SVB) has 100 million dollars in cash it needs to park somewhere safe. Maybe it puts that money into federal bonds paying 2%. Totally safe. As long as you leave it until maturity. But if interest rates go to 6% the market value of your bonds drops, because nobody will pay face value for a 2% bond when they could buy a bond at 6%. You're still fine as long as you hold the bonds. You get less income, but you're fine. But if suddenly you need cash because your depositors have decided to withdraw that money, you have to sell those bonds. But bond buyers want 6% because that's the going rate. So the market value of your 100 million dollars worth of bonds is now only 85 million. As long as you hold the bonds, you don't have to mark to market, but once you start selling those bonds (at 85¢ on the dollar) now you are required to mark the entire holding to market, and you are insolvent because your assets are 15 billion dollars shy of your liabilities.

This has nothing to do with crypto. The depositors in SVB (and any other bank that his the same problem) are fully insured and will get ALL their money back. Only the stockholders lose. And the bondholders if the bank has issued bonds.

OTOH, the crypto that you have in an exchange (such as Coinbase to operate your Visa Coinbase debit card) is not insured. If it gets hacked, or one of the programmers runs off with the money, you lose everything.

MSMike: It actually sounds like you're being pretty sensible, putting around 1% of your portfolio into a high-risk speculation. You might double that 1% or you might lose half of it. That's your right. I took a similar risk when I bought TSLA at around $35 pre-splits, $2.33 equivalent now. My ONLY point is that crypto is useless as currency. It's a speculative digital construct without substance that produces nothing. My investment in Tesla produces (or more properly helps in a very small way to produce) cars, batteries, solar panels and control electronics, etc. And my investment in Solar Bonds (now part of Tesla) helped to install solar panels on somebody's roof, and for the last several years those panels have been producing electricity and reducing (in a very small way) the nation's and the world's dependence on fossil fuels. All while paying me 5%, not because of some kind of Ponzi scheme like SBF was running, but because the solar panels were producing electricity from sunlight, and that has real, tangible value.

Your crypto has gone up in value because people are willing to buy it from you for more than you paid, but it has not produced a thing. In fact, it has a negative effect on the environment because of the huge amount of energy consumed to run the crypto enterprise. Much of that by burning a colossal amount of coal in China.

 

[daniel]

Is that your answer or is that your opinion? I just gave you a link and you disagree with them. Your opinions are just that.

Actually, he didn't disagree with your source: He cited your source, which disagrees with your assertion.

 

[dm28997]

I mean, real money is used legally far more than 800 times more as actual money more than crypto.

So that kinda hurts your argument if it's "only" 800x more for crime.





As we just saw, nobody can do one on your actual money either. Everyone with real money at SVB is getting 100% of that money. No losses at all to those folks.

Now the difference between that and crypto is if you had your crypto stored at an exchange and THAT went out of business, you almost certainly WOULD have lost "money"- maybe all of it.

Same as if you had it in a cold wallet and someone found your private key.

Plus, if anyone ever steals your crypto via fraud- that money is gone too.


Versus actual real money in a bank where if you're the victim of fraud-- or someone just gets your account info and steals the money- you file a fraud claim and you get your money back.


So thanks for providing yet more examples where Crypto is objectively worse than actual money in virtually every circumstance.

Not everyone gets all their money back. Insurance covers only so much.

 

[Knightshade]

Is that your answer or is that your opinion? I just gave you a link and you disagree with them. Your opinions are just that.

Dude.

You just told me your link did NOT compare those crimes.

Then claimed I disagree with your link when I say the ratio is different for those crimes?

Are you sure you read your own link?

Not everyone gets all their money back. Insurance covers only so much.

Except yes, everyone gets all their money back.

Are you not following the news? FDIC is covering 100% of depositor accounts at SVB- no limits.


Ask the folks who had crypto at all the unregulated exchanges that collapsed how much of their accounts were reimbursed.

 

[dm28997]

Actually, he didn't disagree with your source: He cited your source, which disagrees with your assertion.

But he ignored the fact that the traceability of crypto catches more criminals since they need to convert back to fiat to use it.

 

[dm28997]

Dude.

You just told me your link did NOT compare those crimes.

Then claimed I disagree with your link when I say the ratio is different for those crimes?

Are you sure you read your own link?





Except yes, everyone gets all their money back.

Are you not following the news? FDIC is covering 100% of depositor accounts at SVB- no limits.


Ask the folks who had crypto at all the unregulated exchanges that collapsed how much of their accounts were reimbursed.

That is why I use a wallet that is separate from any exchange and the rift raft exchanges are going to collapse like a bad bank.
Who pays for the SVB lost assets?

 

[Knightshade]

That is why I use a wallet that is separate from any exchange and the rift raft exchanges are going to collapse like a bad bank.

Ok. But if someone steals coins from your wallet (which is possible unless your private key is something you keep in your brain and nowhere else- and heck that's still possible if they're willing to do crime to get it) you lose 100% of what they steal, no recourse.

While if someone steals my bank account info, pin, etc and robs me of money I just tell the bank it's fraud and get the $ back.

So again Crypto is objectively worse than real money.

Who pays or the SVB return of assets?

Not sure what you're asking here exactly?

if you mean who pays to make the depositors whole- that'll obviously come from SVB assets first- and anything short is covered by the FDIC.... via the insurance fund if the amount is small enough, or if it's larger then by that plus a special FDIC assessment to all other insured banks. No cost to taxpayers either way.

 

[JRP3]

But he ignored the fact that the traceability of crypto catches more criminals since they need to convert back to fiat to use it.

So it's less useful than currency.