Blackout power from car or powerwall (out of main)

[TradingInvest]

My WAG for the pickup reveal:

1. The pickup will have V2H (vehicle-to-home) capability to power your home during blackouts. It will not come standard, and will not be cheap. Not only can the pickup power your 240v tools, it can literally power your whole house.
2. The pickup will have V2V (vehicle-to-vehicle) capability to power other Teslas in times of need. I don't believe it will come standard either.
3. The pickup will eventually become Tesla's exclusive mobile service vehicle.
4. The pickup will eventually be able to provide mobile service for at least 2 out of every 3 Tesla repairs. Most of the time you will not need to go to Tesla service centers in order to get service done. The Tesla pickup mobile service vehicle will come to either your workplace or home at your convenience.
5. As the pickup ramps up as Tesla mobile service vehicles, Tesla service centers may eventually slowly decline instead of increasing.

Cyber truck can supply 240V, which means it's capable to charge other EVs.
It's very likely to have both 120V and 240V output as standard.
Tesla can't use this truck for mobile services. They need a van with roof to hold all the stuff, with easy access.
They probably planned to use this platform to build a van.
Tesla service centers will increase both for coverage and for capacity. Right now we have 800k Tesla vehicles on the street. The number will rise 10 fold in a few years.

 

[EVDRVN]

Cyber truck can supply 240V, which means it's capable to charge other EVs.
It's very likely to have both 120V and 240V output as standard.
Tesla can't use this truck for mobile services. They need a van with roof to hold all the stuff, with easy access.
They probably planned to use this platform to build a van.
Tesla service centers will increase both for coverage and for capacity. Right now we have 800k Tesla vehicles on the street. The number will rise 10 fold in a few years.

I doubt that an inverter like that will be free, to make it efficient and small at low cost to not be a paid option is unlikely unless they truck is very expensive. It would be stupid to have a separate inverter for VTG and for accessory power as they loading and size are very different. Doing a 1400W pack to AC inverter would be a smart paid option but add quite a bit of cost to the car to develop and add as standard equipment for a variety of reasons.

 

[SOULPEDL]

I doubt that an inverter like that will be free, to make it efficient and small at low cost to not be a paid option is unlikely unless they truck is very expensive. It would be stupid to have a separate inverter for VTG and for accessory power as they loading and size are very different. Doing a 1400W pack to AC inverter would be a smart paid option but add quite a bit of cost to the car to develop and add as standard equipment for a variety of reasons.

OT - Maybe I missed something, but a simple 2,000 Watt inverter goes for just $299 retail.
IMO, 220/110 VAC will be standard Truck equipment or I'll eat Einhorn's shorty shorts.
However, I'm not sure we'll see trucks charging other EVs with any real power for the same reason I can't run my house off the Tesla. But 110V @ 20A I could see. My theory is for Warrantee reasons, because technically it's possible, energy is energy.

 

[TheTalkingMule]

However, I'm not sure we'll see trucks charging other EVs with any real power for the same reason I can't run my house off the Tesla. But 110V @ 20A I could see. My theory is for Warrantee reasons, because technically it's possible, energy is energy.

You can definitely run your house off a Tesla car pack, it's just not set up to. However once the million mile packs are standard......

 

[Nocturnal]

OT - Maybe I missed something, but a simple 2,000 Watt inverter goes for just $299 retail.
IMO, 220/110 VAC will be standard Truck equipment or I'll eat Einhorn's shorty shorts.
However, I'm not sure we'll see trucks charging other EVs with any real power for the same reason I can't run my house off the Tesla. But 110V @ 20A I could see. My theory is for Warrantee reasons, because technically it's possible, energy is energy.

Standard on Rivian I think.

You can definitely run your house off a Tesla car pack, it's just not set up to. However once the million mile packs are standard......

It will be a chicken or egg situation with utility companies allowing grid storage using EVs.

 

[SOULPEDL]

Standard on Rivian I think.
It will be a chicken or egg situation with utility companies allowing grid storage using EVs.

In fact, my utility won't allow my Powerwall charging using grid power (only solar can charge PWs).

My theory on why Tesla EVs don't provide house power is the battery warranty. How would they cover 8yrs/100K miles when your using the battery for something else? AND it Osborns Powerwalls.

 

[TheTalkingMule]

It will be a chicken or egg situation with utility companies allowing grid storage using EVs.

The utility works for me, not the other way around. I dictate policy.

 

[woodisgood]

In fact, my utility won't allow my Powerwall charging using grid power (only solar can charge PWs).

My theory on why Tesla EVs don't provide house power is the battery warranty. How would they cover 8yrs/100K miles when your using the battery for something else? AND it Osborns Powerwalls.

There are two different "home" energy problems people are looking to solve:
1) Emergency power
2) Banking energy to use at higher cost times / saving solar energy to use at night (if utility allows any of this)

The vehicles could address #1 without infringing too much on #2. I would guess that Powerwall customers are looking to address both of those problems.

 

[ZeApelido]

There are two different "home" energy problems people are looking to solve:
1) Emergency power
2) Banking energy to use at higher cost times / saving solar energy to use at night (if utility allows any of this)

The vehicles could address #1 without infringing too much on #2. I would guess that Powerwall customers are looking to address both of those problems.

Exactly. And you can require the powerwall to even access the benefit of #1. And it is such low usage, should have no effect on battery lifespan. Really a no brainer added benefit of an EV that will come from competitors if Tesla doesn't do it.

 

[Nocturnal]

Exactly. And you can require the powerwall to even access the benefit of #1. And it is such low usage, should have no effect on battery lifespan. Really a no brainer added benefit of an EV that will come from competitors if Tesla doesn't do it.

This article is worded poorly but this is a HUGE opportunity for Utility companies. This study estimated it at $560 savings per EV customer to the grid.

SEPA also concluded increased EV deployment could result in a "trillion dollar EV opportunity for prepared and proactive utilities."

With 10% penetration, EVs could shift all residential peak load to night, analysis of SoCal Ed finds

 

[SteveG3]

In fact, my utility won't allow my Powerwall charging using grid power (only solar can charge PWs).

My theory on why Tesla EVs don't provide house power is the battery warranty. How would they cover 8yrs/100K miles when your using the battery for something else? AND it Osborns Powerwalls.

Tesla, has publicly given two reasons that I’m aware of for not allowing the feature...

1) I think bogus... if you’re powering you’re home during a blackout, what about when you need to use the car as a car? Just get a powerwall.

Pretty sure most people would gladly take on the responsibility of managing the use of the battery for home vs transportation during a blackout.

As to your point re potential warranty concerns (which may be there, but, I’ve never heard Tesla reveal),

Only allow the vehicles to supply power at home during a blackout via OTA feature unlock. Just as several times Tesla has unlocked range on applicable vehicles during evacuations due to weather.

2) over my head re nuances of how difficult to overcome, but, the second cited reason vehicle to home is not offered is safety risk to those trying to do line repairs for a utility if the car is sending out juice to the home.




Personally, I’d love to see this. Would it Osborne some PowerWall sales? Sure, but 1) it would be a huge accelerant to broadening the awareness that ICE has been Osborned by EVs (and a great crack in opening up any “only ICE is a real (manly) pickup” bias that might otherwise suppress Tesla pickup sales) 2) Powerwalls demand will just be more and more heavily about pairing with solar rather than as grid backup.

 

[Nocturnal]

Tesla, has publicly given two reasons that I’m aware of for not allowing the feature...

1) I think bogus... if you’re powering you’re home during a blackout, what about when you need to use the car as a car? Just get a powerwall.

Pretty sure most people would gladly take on the responsibility of managing the use of the battery for home vs transportation during a blackout.

As to your point re potential warranty concerns (which may be there, but, I’ve never heard Tesla reveal),

A model 3 battery is equivalent to 7 power walls, which is a lot. If the EV was your only car you could set it to not discharge below X%. Average outage is a little over 3 hours, including major issues. EIA data show average frequency and duration of electric power outages - Today in Energy - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

But, IMO, EV batteries are probably more useful for grid balancing than outages.

I think you're right about it having an enclosed bed (at least as an option). Probably not falcon-wing after the complexities encountered on the Model X. Elon said the truck will make use of titanium. I'm thinking a titanium roll-top. Because this will allow the bed cover to follow the aero-curve of the top of the vehicle. If so, it will definitely be motorized.

Fold down bed sides would certainly push utility to that of a standard sprinter type van, maybe higher. I'm hoping that rumor is true. ​

 

[SteveG3]

A model 3 battery is equivalent to 7 power walls, which is a lot. If the EV was your only car you could set it to not discharge below X%. Average outage is a little over 3 hours, including major issues. EIA data show average frequency and duration of electric power outages - Today in Energy - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

But, IMO, EV batteries are probably more useful for grid balancing than outages.

Yes, this is not some daunting challenge for the public to manage.

re average time of blackout... I think that misses the point. there are major regions of the country where blackouts that go days is a real issue. a real issue even in places where it’s a once a decade event (loss of power for many brings on loss of heat. not fun) I suspect there are many 10 minute blackouts watering down that average.

The blackout use case has nil warranty issues whereas my understanding is that the grid balancing has a potentially very substantial impact on pack lifetime. There could be ways to work around this... some way to measure lifetime battery use for grid balancing, converting them to equivalent miles driven and adding them to miles used for purposes of the warranty.

 

[StealthP3D]

If you are starting with a 350V DC source, an inverter is nearly trivial. 120V RMS is 160V peak and could be direct drive (no isolation depending on UL specs) 240V (split phase) is simple if they add a mid pack tap or an autoformer.
The electronics of each drive unit is basically a 3 phase inverter. Powerwall, Megapack, and the Powerpack inverter are all existing products with this tech in them. Additionally, the inverter rating needs to be much higher than 1400W to handle startup current of motors and such.

Using the drive inverter to double as an inverter to provide A/C power would be the kind of tight integration Tesla is known for and would be a thing of beauty. Detroit would just have the electrical engineering department spec out an inverter and bolt it to the chassis somewhere.

I disagree the engineering and design of an inverter would be "nearly trivial". I'm not saying it would be too difficult or beyond Tesla's capabilities as they have huge expertise in this kind of electrical engineering. I'm saying that there are a lot of esoteric issues that need to be designed around, and strange problems can crop up when using high power silicon carbide chips. The electricity needs to be consistent and "clean" and, if marrying the inverter function into the drive inverter, it's important that the functionality or reliability of the drive inverter is not impacted in any way (even if the owner does dumb stuff with the A/C power at hand). Tesla can do this but I wouldn't call it "nearly trivial" from a practical perspective.

Looking forward to seeing the A/C inverter implementation including the type, number and placement of power outlets.

 

[jerry33]

Using the drive inverter to double as an inverter to provide A/C power would be the kind of tight integration Tesla is known for and would be a thing of beauty. Detroit would just have the electrical engineering department spec out an inverter and bolt it to the chassis somewhere.

I disagree the engineering and design of an inverter would be "nearly trivial". I'm not saying it would be too difficult or beyond Tesla's capabilities as they have huge expertise in this kind of electrical engineering. I'm saying that there are a lot of esoteric issues that need to be designed around, and strange problems can crop up when using high power silicon carbide chips. The electricity needs to be consistent and "clean" and, if marrying the inverter function into the drive inverter, it's important that the functionality or reliability of the drive inverter is not impacted in any way (even if the owner does dumb stuff with the A/C power at hand). Tesla can do this but I wouldn't call it "nearly trivial" from a practical perspective.

Looking forward to seeing the A/C inverter implementation including the type, number and placement of power outlets.

The real problem is how to let the car know that the house is 100% for sure disconnected from the grid. You don't want to electrocute the technicians trying to repair the grid, and in most (perhaps all) jurisdictions there are significant penalties.

 

[mongo]

OT
Calgon, take me away.

Using the drive inverter to double as an inverter to provide A/C power would be the kind of tight integration Tesla is known for and would be a thing of beauty. Detroit would just have the electrical engineering department spec out an inverter and bolt it to the chassis somewhere.

I disagree the engineering and design of an inverter would be "nearly trivial". I'm not saying it would be too difficult or beyond Tesla's capabilities as they have huge expertise in this kind of electrical engineering. I'm saying that there are a lot of esoteric issues that need to be designed around, and strange problems can crop up when using high power silicon carbide chips. The electricity needs to be consistent and "clean" and, if marrying the inverter function into the drive inverter, it's important that the functionality or reliability of the drive inverter is not impacted in any way (even if the owner does dumb stuff with the A/C power at hand). Tesla can do this but I wouldn't call it "nearly trivial" from a practical perspective.

Looking forward to seeing the A/C inverter implementation including the type, number and placement of power outlets.

Hence the qualifier 'nearly'. With the existing Tesla products, an inverter with 350V input is no sweat Yes, there are system level issues, but the circuit is a synchronous buck converter with a 60Hz sine wave target (maybe full bridge converter is the transformer helps). Run it at ~40kHz switching frequency with output filter and you are done (other than UL).

I'm also not suggesting dual duty for the drive inverter, that would not be good due to the additional power switching on the output needed (though I guess they could leverage the motor as an inductor). Rather, that the drive inverter is practically the AC inverter already. New software and a few mods on the output side and they are done.

 

[EVDRVN]

OT - Maybe I missed something, but a simple 2,000 Watt inverter goes for just $299 retail.
IMO, 220/110 VAC will be standard Truck equipment or I'll eat Einhorn's shorty shorts.
However, I'm not sure we'll see trucks charging other EVs with any real power for the same reason I can't run my house off the Tesla. But 110V @ 20A I could see. My theory is for Warrantee reasons, because technically it's possible, energy is energy.

That's not from pack voltage.

 

[StealthP3D]

I'm also not suggesting dual duty for the drive inverter, that would not be good due to the additional power switching on the output needed (though I guess they could leverage the motor as an inductor). Rather, that the drive inverter is practically the AC inverter already. New software and a few mods on the output side and they are done.

I don't understand those two sentences. You appear to be saying you don't think the drive inverter should also function as the inverter for A/C power but the second sentence appears to say it practically already is with software and output mods.

 

[GaryW]

In fact, my utility won't allow my Powerwall charging using grid power (only solar can charge PWs).

My theory on why Tesla EVs don't provide house power is the battery warranty. How would they cover 8yrs/100K miles when your using the battery for something else? AND it Osborns Powerwalls.

There is also the issue of free supercharging.

What I mean is that some enterprising (ie cheap) Tesla owners would charge their Tesla’s for free, and use that power instead of paying for solar panels, or grid electricity.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

Using the drive inverter to double as an inverter to provide A/C power would be the kind of tight integration Tesla is known for and would be a thing of beauty. Detroit would just have the electrical engineering department spec out an inverter and bolt it to the chassis somewhere.

I disagree the engineering and design of an inverter would be "nearly trivial". I'm not saying it would be too difficult or beyond Tesla's capabilities as they have huge expertise in this kind of electrical engineering. I'm saying that there are a lot of esoteric issues that need to be designed around, and strange problems can crop up when using high power silicon carbide chips. The electricity needs to be consistent and "clean" and, if marrying the inverter function into the drive inverter, it's important that the functionality or reliability of the drive inverter is not impacted in any way (even if the owner does dumb stuff with the A/C power at hand). Tesla can do this but I wouldn't call it "nearly trivial" from a practical perspective.

Looking forward to seeing the A/C inverter implementation including the type, number and placement of power outlets.

If they use the drive inverter directly they'll need to include some good protections against faults from connected equipment, but I expect that other than that and some extra contactors (to switch between the motor and the 120/240V outlets, so only one is energized at a time, or at least, the outlets are only energized at a stop and not with whatever the motor is fed during operation - not sure if you can use the motor usefully as an inductor without generating motion while outputting a useful AC waveform for powering equipment) using the drive inverter "directly" would be a pretty easy solution. The drive inverter would probably be overbuilt for the purpose of supplying 120/240V power.

From a reliability standpoint I'd rather them use their driver inverter know-how to build purpose built inverter(s) instead though, just so that no matter what (well, almost no matter what - if your equipment gets hit with lightning all bets are off, etc) the worst that equipment issues can cause is failure of the equipment inverter and you can drive to the service center to get it fixed. Bonus points if they build it in such a way that it's an easy to replace module by mobile service, but hopefully just having some sane GFCI / breaker / etc type protections would be enough. Could possibly do with "smart" breakers using contactors and current monitoring ? (like the "smart fuses" on the Model 3 that disable power output to a circuit if it's pulling more power than expected)...

On the other hand, this would mean more HVDC wiring is required... so I suppose if they can get the protection design effective / reliable enough then perhaps using the drive inverter is the best idea.