BMW is teslas biggest fan

[Kaivball]

I don't think everyone is using the same definition for "reverse engineering" in this thread.

 

[Alfred]

before i start, i believe this belongs in investor section since it shows how bmw views tesla threat. i am posting this here because i do not know who to forward this to at tesla, i assume someone will or they will read it here. .......
.......
i was fascinated by this for several reasons
1. bmw must be pretty concerned to do this
2. why would tesla tolerate this and fix car that was being reverse engineered? are they really aware?
3. dont know what is protected or not but i suspect that companies with deep pocket could try to set up their own network.
4. i now more fully understand the policy of no dealerships for tesla. if bmw did enter this arena, they would have to convince their dealerships to sell EV that will require minimal service (where dealerships make a large amount of their profit). like the volt, unlikely dealers would push the car very hard.

Your observation is correct. BMW became a "Tesla-Fan" already with the Roadster. They tested them very thoroughly touring the Lüneburger Heide. They reacted also on a corporate level rather quickly with very substantial investments in new manufacturing facilities to be able to produce lighter weight (carbon fiber) cars. I trust that they noticed how difficult it is to build an electric car with such performance characteristics. Tesla's efficient and powerful electric traction system from battery to wheel is very hard to replicate. From the data of BMW's current electric prototypes you can glean that they have a long way to go. I can visualise some unpleasant confrontations in their board room. In this case it is not sufficient to know how to build conventional cars and Tesla's electrical know how is much harder to come by than most imagine.

 

[lolachampcar]

Pull the suspension arms (front and rear) off an F10 M5 and lay them down right next to the MS suspension. I think it will be quite clear what inspired MS suspension.

 

[ppl]

Reverse engineering ANY product is not infringing on IP nor violating any sort of other legal venue. Taking apart someone else's product and building something close to it but better is not even violating any sort of patent law. In fact, that's one of the purposes of patent law. Yes, it's there to protect your work for a limited time, but it also helps give other innovators new ideas to make improvements and promote competition. That's what Elon wants. Nobody can take what Tesla did and copy it exactly as that would infringe on their patents, but they are encouraged to learn about competitor's products and engineering accomplishments (via their patents) and then go ahead and make new and improved versions of them in their own products.

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I agree not illegal to reverse engineer UNLESS your purchase agreement that you signed in a contract specifies that you won't

 

[stevezzzz]

I agree not illegal to reverse engineer UNLESS your purchase agreement that you signed in a contract specifies that you won't

It will make an interesting court case, should TM ever decide to bring suit.

 

[yobigd20]

I agree not illegal to reverse engineer UNLESS your purchase agreement that you signed in a contract specifies that you won't

yeah but who knows if that would ever hold up in court. besides, as soon as you sell it to someone else then the new owner is not bound to that contract.

 

[SCW-Greg]

Are you thinking about this story about the MP4-12C? :
Performance plus package, any ride comfort compromise at all?


P+ First deliveries | Forums | Tesla Motors


Anyways, MP4-12C is quite a different car from Elon's old F1.

Oh TEG, you're right. Just knew it was a Maclaren.
Thx!

 

[mountaineer]

Without violating Tesla's patents, it will be extremely difficult for anyone to replicate a Model S, provided that there's no significant breakthrough in battery tech.

 

[Jeeps17]

Without violating Tesla's patents, it will be extremely difficult for anyone to replicate a Model S, provided that there's no significant breakthrough in battery tech.

As recent developments in the cell phone arena have demonstrated, even if a company is convicted of patent infringement and fined (Samsung vs. Apple), it can still be financially very profitable to 'steal' someone else's designs / tech if you are able to turn around and sell your product in large quantities (in this case, the Galaxy line of phones).

I am not sure how such a battle would translate to something as complex as an EV, but the Model S is essentially a large computer on wheels, and the established automakers have deep pockets...

 

[Johan]

before i start, i believe this belongs in investor section since it shows how bmw views tesla threat. i am posting this here because i do not know who to forward this to at tesla, i assume someone will or they will read it here.

was at delaware supercharger yesterday, June 14th 10pm EST. a model s signature was already there. started to talk cars with the person there. he told me he used to work for tesla. i asked who he worked for now and he told me BMW. he told me this car was not owned by him but was purchased by bmw and brought up on a flat bed truck from the carolinas to use the supercharger. it was unloaded at the rest stop there. i remembered signing agreement not to reverse engineer car and told him. he claimed tesla knew and actually had continued to do repairs under warrantee and had actually replaced the battery and car charger(who knows what was done to it--my comment not his). i got dinner but something didn't connect with me, why drive up a car to charge it? went back out and he was in car with opened lap top recording data. i asked him why they would come up here with a depleted car battery and he told me they were checking out the supercharger. i wondered if they had upgraded this one since my car seemed to be charging faster than i remembered and he told me they hadn't since it was still at the old rate. he also stated that it was dangerous to charge a lithium ion battery at the rate tesla did and they were there to find out how it was done. he said it was "brilliant how they were using a step down rate as it charged".

he was bragging how the car bmw purchased was the 88th one made (my guess would be vin 00088). i am sure tesla can tell who was charging then and can verify this. i was also charging then vin5733 in case they want to contact me.

i was fascinated by this for several reasons
1. bmw must be pretty concerned to do this
2. why would tesla tolerate this and fix car that was being reverse engineered? are they really aware?
3. dont know what is protected or not but i suspect that companies with deep pocket could try to set up their own network.
4. i now more fully understand the policy of no dealerships for tesla. if bmw did enter this arena, they would have to convince their dealerships to sell EV that will require minimal service (where dealerships make a large amount of their profit). like the volt, unlikely dealers would push the car very hard.

Very interesting story, thanks for sharing! To me it's not that we couldn't already guess that this is happening, but very interesting to think that BMW engineers are driving/flat bedding the car to a public supercharger to conduct their "research". They are on this like a technology they need to wrap their head around, at the same time a regular Joe Shmoe owner (no offence ppl) pulls up next to them to plug in his car at one of the many Superchargers Tesla have made publicly available months ago, like an everyday thing. To me it just paints a clear picture of the gap right now between Tesla and everyone else. Tesla is in 1st position, with currently no-one in 2nd or 3rd...

 

[brianman]

As an aside, I'm curious to hear what Mercedes might think about this as well.

Quick point of clarification...

In the OP and this comment, the interesting part to me was the Supercharger aspect. BMW didn't buy the SC. They bought the vehicle. It will be interesting to see if the reverse engineering aspect of the SC device itself is a legal troublespot for BMW or others.

 

[EVNow]

Happens all the time. In fact it would be a really surpring if serious EV OEMs haven't analyzed each others cars.

I remember when Leaf first came out, a consultant posted a thread on MNL offering to buy Leafs (for his clients who were large OEMs) at a considerable premium.

 

[VolkerP]

I remember during the early Roadster times that Porsche bought one to reverse engineer. Tesla was all excited about it too, so based on that, any moment now we'll see Porsche unveil a Roaster killer and put Tesla out of business with their vast resources. Any minute now ... *inhales* ... *still holding my breath* ...

I spoke with a Porsche engineer. They tested the Roadster on a cold day, driving it hard, and were relieved that the battery shut down after a short distance. "See, it doesn't work!"
My conclusion is, management delayed any action to go electric for many years. Now there is Porsche 918 Spyder Hybrid announced. Porsche simply cannot go pure electric for the next years without damaging their brand and repelling their fans for the years to come.

 

[nursebee]

Maybe I am not a good business man but as I read the OP I figured they were doing due diligence to evaluate purchasing Tesla drivetrain/battery pack to put their badge on it.

 

[SebastianR]

I spoke with a Porsche engineer. They tested the Roadster on a cold day, driving it hard, and were relieved that the battery shut down after a short distance. "See, it doesn't work!"

That's the most infuriating thing about German car makers: Had another discussion with some engineers and all they could talk about was the gap dimensions (Spaltmaße) and how that's the one and deciding factor that will make Tesla fail...

 

[marvinat0rz]

That's not infuriating at all - it's promising. As long as they have their heads up their asses, no one will be able to catch up.

 

[Rla]

Very interesting story, thanks for sharing! To me it's not that we couldn't already guess that this is happening, but very interesting to think that BMW engineers are driving/flat bedding the car to a public supercharger to conduct their "research". They are on this like a technology they need to wrap their head around, at the same time a regular Joe Shmoe owner (no offence ppl) pulls up next to them to plug in his car at one of the many Superchargers Tesla have made publicly available months ago, like an everyday thing. To me it just paints a clear picture of the gap right now between Tesla and everyone else. Tesla is in 1st position, with currently no-one in 2nd or 3rd...

Excactly. whatever they might do now is way too late.
I went to the introduction of the new BMW 3GT yesterday, and even talking about the i3 was akward, at best. According to the dealership owner, Ev's are still another 15-20 years out. Current i3/i8 program is for very small nice market: California and Shanghai. A charger at home costs about €8000 (go figure!) So even if BMW could come up with the tech, they still have a huge problem: their own (or in the US, the independent) dealerships. They'd rather sell you a new 3GT series than an i3, because the 3GT has more room, more options, and more range.

(ps: the owner only knew about the roadster, didn't even know about Model S)

 

[lolachampcar]

The thing to keep in mind is that most good engineers will immediately asses the good then focus on the bad. If it works, it does not need fixing thus does not require your attention. The Germans tend to be good engineers.

My primary frustration with Germans is the inability to admit they are wrong (a gross generalization here with no offense meant). My dad would say that it you are right 51% of the time you will be successful. Although not absolutely true, it did point out for me that I would be wrong a lot and that I needed to learn from those mistakes to avoid repeating them. If you are never wrong, there are no mistakes to learn from.

BEVs are the correct solution and now there is no debate as to IF they can be done (thanks Elon). I think you will see movement from all the German manufacturers moving forward.

 

[ElSupreme]

As recent developments in the cell phone arena have demonstrated, even if a company is convicted of patent infringement and fined (Samsung vs. Apple), it can still be financially very profitable to 'steal' someone else's designs / tech if you are able to turn around and sell your product in large quantities (in this case, the Galaxy line of phones).

Or just steal those patents from a dying company. Like the iPhone camera system. Apple isn't a shining knight here.

http://appleinsider.com/articles/10...s_apple_of_infringing_digital_imaging_patents

 

[ShortSlaver]

That's the most infuriating thing about German car makers: Had another discussion with some engineers and all they could talk about was the gap dimensions (Spaltmaße) and how that's the one and deciding factor that will make Tesla fail...

I used to work for a German tech company and although I had great respect for them, the typical German top down model and missing the big picture is prevalent.