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Bob Lutz is Opining Again

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wdolson

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Jul 24, 2015
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Clark Co, WA
I came across this when checking Tesla sales for last month (looking good BTW). Bob Lutz was an CNBC today and while he's still bashing Tesla I noticed he's beginning to hedge his bets a bit about Tesla's profitability.

Lutz On Tesla: Deliveries Aren't Necessarily Money-Generating Sales

I don't think he's characterizing Tesla's sales model correctly. Tesla gets their money for the car the same time another manufacturer would get their money from a dealership. In a world where almost all the cars they produce are pre-sold, they get their money the same time frame another car maker would, and they are able to make more per car by eliminating the middle man. When demand gets soft (in the distant future when the demand is filled or an economic downturn), Tesla's model becomes more shaky because they don't have the buffer of dealerships other companies have.

He also claims Tesla has no advantage in batteries. He doesn't seem to realize li-ion batteries are a class of batteries, not one chemistry. Tesla does have their own chemistry that appears to be one of the best if not the best available for cars. But even if Tesla didn't have a chemistry edge, they have a massive volume edge. Tesla is the only company in the world which has enough cells to mass produce an EV right now. Nobody else will be there for at least a couple of years, if not more.

While I do think Bob is out to lunch with some of his criticisms, this is the first time I've seen him soften his rhetoric on whether Tesla can be profitable or not. He isn't admitting they can be, but he's not as negative as he once was.
 
It would be nice if everyone thought Tesla would eventually be financially successful, but even those of us fanboys/girls will probably grudgingly admit we aren’t certain. It’s ok with me if he isn’t a fanboy. If he had been a Tesla employee or board member, his opinion might matter more to me. But he is an outsider albeit an outsider with lots of auto manufacturing experience.
 
What I found most interesting in that interview was his throwaway line at the end attempting to suck trump's dick. Why would he do that? The thought didn't even have anything to do with the rest of the interview. Is he angling for a cabinet post or something?
 
What I found most interesting in that interview was his throwaway line at the end attempting to suck trump's dick. Why would he do that? The thought didn't even have anything to do with the rest of the interview. Is he angling for a cabinet post or something?

His alternate reality devoid of science, sense, or facts would fit in well with what we are seeing coming out these days.

I just find it so interesting how he's obsessed with Tesla.

Almost as if Tesla is doing something he thought was impossible and he still can't believe what is happening and that it is real.
 
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I thought his assessment was pretty fair and he is right about the battery/motor technology - other companies could duplicate if they wanted to. Tesla certainty does have a tech and battery infrastructure advantage. But I think their biggest advantages are being vertically integrated and direct to consumer sales.

Other auto manufacturers are reliant on suppliers for various systems and sub-systems where Tesla keeps almost all the systems engineering in house. OTA updates are a pipe dream for most auto manufacturers right now because they don't actually control the software, a supplier does.

I hope to see Tesla build on these strengths.

Tesla struggles with production and other things that traditional auto manufacturers have figured out and Lutz sees the pitfalls associated with those issues. What he doesn't see is that Tesla is playing the game differently and if they can make their strategy successful they have huge growth potential.
 
I thought his assessment was pretty fair and he is right about the battery/motor technology - other companies could duplicate if they wanted to. Tesla certainty does have a tech and battery infrastructure advantage. But I think their biggest advantages are being vertically integrated and direct to consumer sales.

Other auto manufacturers are reliant on suppliers for various systems and sub-systems where Tesla keeps almost all the systems engineering in house. OTA updates are a pipe dream for most auto manufacturers right now because they don't actually control the software, a supplier does.

I think you're contradicting yourself a bit here. If Tesla has better battery chemistry that's an operational advantage. If Tesla makes batteries in scale, allowing for reduced kw/hr costing along with a stable supply at a predictable price, that's an operational advantage. If they don't use dealers that's an operational advantage. For Bob Lutz to say the above is nothing unique is simply false. It's not unique in the sense Tesla isn't using a new invention like solid state batteries, but integrating all these things into a functioning whole is incredibly difficult. The fact Tesla is doing that currently IS a unique advantage.

A container ship is a whole heck of a lot more difficult to turn than a 2 man sailboat. Bob Lutz is basically saying "hey, they're both boats right?"
 
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...other companies could duplicate if they wanted to...

In 2014, Ford Motor said "We have driven the Model S, torn it down, put it back together, and driven it again...We're very familiar with that product."

There's no question that other companies can do what Tesla has done so that's why Tesla is created to encourage them to do it.

Others have announced that they can drive faster, drive longer, and saturate the U.S. with many faster-than-Supercharger stations.

The problem is: It is now 2018 and do they want to do it?
 
The problem is: It is now 2018 and do they want to do it?

They have lots of capitol invested in ICE vehicles - supply chain, infrastructure, spare parts, engineering, etc. Making a switch to a different power-train technology such as BEV and doing at scale is not insignificant. They will have to invest in new resources to make that happen which will cost them a lot of money.

So for me I think Tesla's investments in infrastructure (Gigafactory, supercharger network) are some of the keys to their competitive advantage.

As an investor in Tesla I'd love to see them raise more capital in order to build out manufacturing capacity. Yes they will burn through more cash but I feel the demand is certainty there and one of the only ways they stay afloat is to capture as much BEV market share as possible before everyone else has time to catch up.
 
In 2014, Ford Motor said "We have driven the Model S, torn it down, put it back together, and driven it again...We're very familiar with that product."

There's no question that other companies can do what Tesla has done so that's why Tesla is created to encourage them to do it.

Others have announced that they can drive faster, drive longer, and saturate the U.S. with many faster-than-Supercharger stations.

The problem is: It is now 2018 and do they want to do it?

A German tear down of the Model 3 concluded that the Model 3 could not be built at a profit by any German car maker.

So it is certainly questionable whether other car companies can do what Tesla has done (not to mention actually driving the BEV development forward, which is what Tesla _is_ doing).
 
...profit...

Lutz's argument is Tesla can make an electric motor, so can the rest of car companies.

The reality is there have been a lot of hype that they can do it in the past because they have had "Tesla killers" products lined up that are very promising next year. Then next year came and they still have not been able to keep up with Tesla.

Lots of bragging about "next year" Tesla Killers products but why have they not been able to compete with Tesla?

I guess one of the reasons is: It's still profitable to do petroleum while bragging abe how easy they can catch up with Tesla.
 
Tesla gets their money for the car the same time another manufacturer would get their money from a dealership. In a world where almost all the cars they produce are pre-sold, they get their money the same time frame another car maker would, and they are able to make more per car by eliminating the middle man.

Wdolson, I do not believe that this is strictly accurate. From decades ago I putzed around with preparing some tax returns for a couple of local automobile dealers. Generally, the cycle was as follows:

Manufacturer sells to dealer on open account. Manufacturer records a sale and a receivable. No cash changes hands.

Customer buys car from dealer. Dealer remits the manufacturer invoice amount to the manufacturer, or if the manufacturer finances the deal, the receivable from the dealer is reclassified on the manufacturer's books as a note receivable from the buyer.

Manufacturer allows the dealers about 20-25 days on open account before interest is charged to the dealer for the unpaid receivables, so there is some float for the dealers not to pay the manufacturer upon receipt of a truckload of new cars.
 
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Wdolson, I do not believe that this is strictly accurate. From decades ago I putzed around with preparing some tax returns for a couple of local automobile dealers. Generally, the cycle was as follows:

Manufacturer sells to dealer on open account. Manufacturer records a sale and a receivable. No cash changes hands.

Customer buys car from dealer. Dealer remits the manufacturer invoice amount to the manufacturer, or if the manufacturer finances the deal, the receivable from the dealer is reclassified on the manufacturer's books as a note receivable from the buyer.

Manufacturer allows the dealers about 20-25 days on open account before interest is charged to the dealer for the unpaid receivables, so there is some float for the dealers not to pay the manufacturer upon receipt of a truckload of new cars.

In other words "it's complicated" :)

I know Tesla has some loan thing set up for the overseas deliveries so they aren't completely out the cash to build the car until it's delivered overseas, but I don't think they do that for domestic deliveries. I'm not a money person, so I've only glossed over the financials.

Bob Lutz is often wrong about many things Tesla, but I still think it's good to listen to him. He articulates how the mainstream car business thinks. He does have some valid points here and there too. In the logistics of getting cars built, Tesla is behind most of the rest of the car industry. They are getting better, but they are still behind.

In some ways Lutz is right that some of Tesla's technological advantages could be eclipsed by a dedicated competitor, but the competition has to get dedicated first and only the Europeans are even close to serious about competing at this point. IMO, the South Koreans will be the next group of companies to get serious.

Tesla has a lot of moats, some easily breached by a serious competitor, others are going to take a lot of effort to breach.

1) OTA updates - It would not be difficult to do this, but other car companies are scared of software and the bean counters are too concerned about what happens if serious bugs creep into an update, it installs wrong, or hackers figure out how to override it. GM already has OnStar capability on all their new cars. They could piggyback OTA updates on the back of that, but they are culturally constrained.

2) Self driving tech - At the moment Tesla is ahead of the industry in self driving hardware in their cars. There are some other car maker's implementations of self driving tech that's is inferior in some ways but superior in others. It is an area where virtually everyone is pouring a lot of R&D funds, so it's a fairly shallow moat.

3) Overall electronics - Munro's teardown concluded that the electronics on the Model 3 was a generation ahead of anything else in the car industry. The quality of Tesla's electronics is much better than the competition. It's another relatively shallow moat because competitors could figure out how to catch up.

4) Battery tech - This is a bit hazy because there are different philosophies about the best packaging and the best chemistry. Most companies are doing pouch cells while Tesla is doing cylinders. The architecture of Tesla's battery packs is much more complex than the competition because they have to wire up all those cells and keep them cool. Munro did think the Model 3's battery pack was the best made in the industry. We know Tesla uses its own chemistry (manufactured by Panasonic), but it's unclear exactly how it differs from the chemistry used by the competition. Tesla appears to have some advantage over the competition, but few know for sure how big an advantage they have and if anyone is working on a better chemistry.

5) Car efficiency - This is one that few talk about, but for size and weight, Tesla is much better at efficiency. The i3 and Bolt have pretty good efficiency, but they are both very small cars. The new European cars coming on the market in the next year or two are the first EVs that are comparable with Tesla's offerings in size. However the preliminary range estimates for these cars all seem to be less than Tesla's range for comparable vehicles. The e-Tron will have a 95 KWh pack and have a range estimated around 200-250 miles. The X 100D has just shy of 300 miles range. Some of that is probably shape, Tesla puts a lot of effort into making their cars aerodynamic, but Tesla also has very good energy management systems on board. Some of that is probably a software advantage the competition hasn't caught onto yet.

6) Superchargers - CCS is touted as the next great thing, but the supercharger network exists today and it's very easy to use. Most current CCS chargers are not very high power, but higher power systems are promised soon. We'll see how well they work for long distance drivers. The other manufacturers are mostly just hoping the market will take care of the charging thing itself and they aren't really worried about it. VW is the only company directly involved in building chargers and that's only because of dieselgate. They wouldn't be doing it either if they didn't have to.

7) Volume - This is the deepest moat. Tesla is close to 5 years ahead on the ability to build EVs in volume. The key is access to batteries and Tesla has secured this. Other companies are breaking ground on their own battery factories, but Tesla is the only one operating and it took 5 years to get to this point. Other companies have more resources to throw at building factories and can possibly build them faster, but the lead is still measured in years.

Tesla also has some disadvantages. Being a smaller company than most of the competition, they run on more of a shoestring and a higher percentage of their expenses are going into R&D and expansion. Tesla's sales model is stronger when demand is high, but if demand dropped sharply (at this point only due to a world economic downturn), they might be in trouble because they don't have the buffer of the dealer network that other manufacturers have.

In theory Bob Lutz is also right that other companies have a wide array of ICE and their EVs will initially only be a small percentage of their sales. They could afford to sell EVs at a big loss to get in the door. However, he's wrong that this could be a viable strategy for really hurting Tesla.

5 years ago it would have worked, but it won't today. By the time another manufacturer is making and selling enough EVs to seriously compete with Tesla, they will also need to make a real profit on those cars because that volume won't be down in the noise anymore. It's true for a company like VW that selling an equivalent volume of EVs as Tesla sells would only be 5% or so of their yearly sales, but losing a lot of money on 5% of your sales volume is going to drag down the overall health of the company. And there is the danger that if they get to 5% production of EVs, a much larger percentage of their customers than that will want and EV and won't settle for an ICE. At which point the bottom falls out of their ICE sales.

To get to a point where a company could start selling an equivalent EV volume with Tesla, they would have to breach most of Tesla's moats first. It's a steep uphill climb and nowhere near as easy as Bob Lutz makes it sound.

Ford said they took apart a Model S, figured it out and said they could reproduce it, but while they could bend the metal to make something very similar, they don't have the expertise in electronics, software, or batteries to make something as good. Maybe they figured that out since.