Bought a model Y that I thought had clean title and found out it was salvage

[brainhouston]

Because that's their standard practice--they send most used cars off to auction/wholesalers because they don't have much interest in being a used car business.

So where are all the cars that show up in their used inventory on website?
Genuinely curious, was considering getting one someday...

 

[exxxviii]

So where are all the cars that show up in their used inventory on website?
Genuinely curious, was considering getting one someday...

Odds are pretty high that most of Tesla's used inventory comes from lease turn-in cars. The other source would be trade-ins, but probably mostly lease cars. That is what the legacy automakers do... Their captive finance companies hold private auctions with dealers only for their lease turn-in cars. Then, any remaining lease turn-inventory goes to open auctions.

 

[exxxviii]

Without anything else to go on, this sound like one of those cases of title washing. I dont have access to carfax or any of those vin lookup services, but if they show the car being moved between a couple different states in a fairly short period of time, that is another big indication of title washing.

OP, check the carfax for vehicle registration / location information.

OP posted Carfax info long above. Probably not title washing. Probably either Tesla error or Tesla treated it as a total and sent it to IAAI.

You can clearly see the ownership chain in Carfax: Tesla->Tesla Lease->Used Car Dealer.

 

[jjrandorin]

OP posted Carfax info long above. Probably not title washing. Probably either Tesla error or Tesla treated it as a total and sent it to IAAI.

You can clearly see the ownership chain in Carfax: Tesla->Tesla Lease->Used Car Dealer.

The post you quote of mine is at the bottom of page 1 of this thread. The OP posted the carfax log in the middle of page 2 (so after I made that post). Given subsequent information, it doesnt look like title washing, but it does look like a leased vehicle that tesla sent to IAAI auction for some reason.

 

[exxxviii]

The post you quote of mine is at the bottom of page 1 of this thread. The OP posted the carfax log in the middle of page 2 (so after I made that post). Given subsequent information, it doesnt look like title washing, but it does look like a leased vehicle that tesla sent to IAAI auction for some reason.

Doh, I am sorry. This was a quirk of the forum, for some reason showing that post while I was typing another. If I could delete mine, I would. How embarrassing.

 

[jjrandorin]

Doh, I am sorry. This was a quirk of the forum, for some reason showing that post while I was typing another. If I could delete mine, I would. How embarrassing.

Its not a problem at all, dont worry about it. Its just conversation (and polite conversation at that, so thank you for that).

 

[Hormold]

So where are all the cars that show up in their used inventory on website?
Genuinely curious, was considering getting one someday...

I think they don't want to do repairs sometimes and just send cars with minor defects to the auction in batches.

For example, same situation as mine:
Model 3 2023 SR.
But the car was sold with 2 miles odo (!!) from Tesla with clean documents after dent on right fender of the car (I think during delivery).

Bidfax: https://en.bidfax.info/tesla/model-...3-2023-white-motor-vin-5yj3e1ea6pf478585.html
Bidfax not show actual price. Auction price was higher than on website.

This car too has claimed as salvage by Tesla after auction report.
And warranty was voided week after sale, supercharged blocked.
This car bought with my car on IAAI (on same week from by same dealer).

 

[exxxviii]

And I understand that perhaps Tesla is really interpreting this information from NMVTIS (mistakenly) as a salvage title.

I do not think Tesla is misinterpreting NMVTIS information - most likely Tesla directed the car to be salvaged and reported to NMVTIS. As others have suggested multiple times, I agree that unwinding the deal with the dealer is your best path. Prime Sales was either dirty or inexperienced, but ultimately the likely culpable party in your saga.

This is the summary of events from the Carfax report.

• Tesla leased the car on 6/18/2021
• Tesla took the car back from lease on 10/21/2022
• It looks like Tesla kept ownership of the vehicle after lease turn-in
• Around 4/27/2023, the car was in an accident
• Tesla chose to auction the car at IAAI
• Prime Sales bought the car from IAAI about a week later on 5/3/2023
• Prime sales offered the car for sale 5/17/2023 - about 2 weeks for transport and repairs

These are my conclusions based on my personal experience in the wholesale automotive industry...

1. Tesla probably decided to treat the car as salvage and recorded it as such in there database
   • They could have repaired the car and sold it at Manheim Riverside or Manheim California - both are nearby and known for selling premium cars
   • They could also have chosen ADESA Los Angeles, who sells good quality cars
   • Instead, Tesla sold it as-is at IAAI, an auction company known primarily for selling insurance loss cars from insurers - most of the buyers in those lanes would be salvage yards and repair shops
   • Tesla probably has an agreement with IAAI that they would report the car to NMVTIS (my conjecture)
2. All this transpired in a very short timeframe, so the title and NMVTIS would still appear clear until the data caught up
   • It would look clean to the dealer at that moment in time
   • And the dealer would have a narrow window of opportunity to sell the car before the title and salvage records updated
3. The dealer is responsible because one of two things is probably true about them:
   • They were fully aware that IAAI is primarily a salvage auction and that the car would likely show up as salvaged at some point
   • They were ignorant about IAAI and bought a damaged, but repairable car, opportunistically
4. As far as Tesla is concerned, they wrote the car off and it is totaled to them, that's why they sold it at IAAI instead of Manheim or ADESA
   • It will probably be difficult to persuade Tesla to convert it back to non-salvage, because in their point of view, they did everything right
   • Your best case is that you may get Supercharger access restored, but you probably won't get the warranty restored

Your only likely recourse is to get Prime Sales to unwind the car, because they either misrepresented what they knew would likely occur or they are just idiots. If their other undamaged inventory came from Manheim or ADESA, then they absolutely knew and screwed you.

 

[brainhouston]

I hear that a lot of dealers jump on cars with "clear" title status on IAAI for obvious reasons n it wasn't ever an issue, ie clear status remained.
So, i don't understand if IAAI is flat out lying on car info/auction data page or some different process is happening with Teslas...
Anyhow, good to be aware of this issue

 

[stopcrazypp]

I do not think Tesla is misinterpreting NMVTIS information - most likely Tesla directed the car to be salvaged and reported to NMVTIS. As others have suggested multiple times, I agree that unwinding the deal with the dealer is your best path. Prime Sales was either dirty or inexperienced, but ultimately the likely culpable party in your saga.

This is the summary of events from the Carfax report.

• Tesla leased the car on 6/18/2021
• Tesla took the car back from lease on 10/21/2022
• It looks like Tesla kept ownership of the vehicle after lease turn-in
• Around 4/27/2023, the car was in an accident
• Tesla chose to auction the car at IAAI
• Prime Sales bought the car from IAAI about a week later on 5/3/2023
• Prime sales offered the car for sale 5/17/2023 - about 2 weeks for transport and repairs

These are my conclusions based on my personal experience in the wholesale automotive industry...

1. Tesla probably decided to treat the car as salvage and recorded it as such in there database
   • They could have repaired the car and sold it at Manheim Riverside or Manheim California - both are nearby and known for selling premium cars
   • They could also have chosen ADESA Los Angeles, who sells good quality cars
   • Instead, Tesla sold it as-is at IAAI, an auction company known primarily for selling insurance loss cars from insurers - most of the buyers in those lanes would be salvage yards and repair shops
   • Tesla probably has an agreement with IAAI that they would report the car to NMVTIS (my conjecture)
2. All this transpired in a very short timeframe, so the title and NMVTIS would still appear clear until the data caught up
   • It would look clean to the dealer at that moment in time
   • And the dealer would have a narrow window of opportunity to sell the car before the title and salvage records updated
3. The dealer is responsible because one of two things is probably true about them:
   • They were fully aware that IAAI is primarily a salvage auction and that the car would likely show up as salvaged at some point
   • They were ignorant about IAAI and bought a damaged, but repairable car, opportunistically
4. As far as Tesla is concerned, they wrote the car off and it is totaled to them, that's why they sold it at IAAI instead of Manheim or ADESA
   • It will probably be difficult to persuade Tesla to convert it back to non-salvage, because in their point of view, they did everything right
   • Your best case is that you may get Supercharger access restored, but you probably won't get the warranty restored

Your only likely recourse is to get Prime Sales to unwind the car, because they either misrepresented what they knew would likely occur or they are just idiots. If their other undamaged inventory came from Manheim or ADESA, then they absolutely knew and screwed you.

But under California law, if the vehicle has been determined as a total loss, they have only 10 days to report to the DMV as such:

https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/vehicle-code/veh-sect-11515/

So if the OP inquires with DMV about title status (not sure if they did recently or how recently they did it), it should be updated by now. There is a possibility due to paperwork delays, a clean title was issued before the salvage came, but supposedly the DMV have not received a report it is salvage yet. If the title remains purely clean, then all OP has to do is clarify to Tesla and they should have both warranty and supercharging restored. I remember a previous case was fixed this way.

While in some states or if vehicles move across state lines it is possible to have totaled vehicles appear as clean title indefinitely, that doesn't appear to apply to California.

 

[exxxviii]

But under California law, if the vehicle has been determined as a total loss, they have only 10 days to report to the DMV as such:

https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/vehicle-code/veh-sect-11515/

So if the OP inquires with DMV about title status (not sure if they did recently or how recently they did it), it should be updated by now. There is a possibility due to paperwork delays, a clean title was issued before the salvage came, but supposedly the DMV have not received a report it is salvage yet. If the title remains purely clean, then all OP has to do is clarify to Tesla and they should have both warranty and supercharging restored. I remember a previous case was fixed this way.

While in some states or if vehicles move across state lines it is possible to have totaled vehicles appear as clean title indefinitely, that doesn't appear to apply to California.

Who is the "they" and when does the timer start? This may be semantics, but that link looks like it is written for an insurance company that declares a car totaled and then takes ownership of it. There are a couple sections that look like they might be directed to a non-insurance owner. In this case, it may never been in the hands of an insurance company. Tesla merely wrote it off as a salvage, sold it at a salvage auction, and possibly had an agreement with that auction to report the salvage info upon transfer of title. If anything, it seems like the reporting clock would have begun on 5/3/2023, when IAAI sold the car.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Who is the "they" and when does the timer start? This may be semantics, but that link looks like it is written for an insurance company that declares a car totaled and then takes ownership of it. There are a couple sections that look like they might be directed to a non-insurance owner. In this case, it may never been in the hands of an insurance company. Tesla merely wrote it off as a salvage, sold it at a salvage auction, and possibly had an agreement with that auction to report the salvage info upon transfer of title. If anything, it seems like the reporting clock would have begun on 5/3/2023, when IAAI sold the car.

"They" meaning Tesla, including their insurance arm (I'm assuming they insure their own cars with Tesla insurance, although it's possible they don't). Just wanted to point out there are cases where Tesla gets the salvage determination from some database even if the title is actually fully clean and no total loss was ever declared by any party.

Also the conditions posted previously say warranty void only applies to cars without a clean title or:
"Vehicles that have been determined to be a total loss by an insurance company."

How many UMC's have you been through?

I just picked up # 6 from the SC on Saturday. I'm not doing anything to cause them to break. But for some reason they are. I know what some of you are going to tell me...go buy a wall charger...we are...a clipper creek...but what I want to know is why these UMC's are crapping out...even to th...

teslamotorsclub.com

So Tesla marking a vehicle themselves as total loss by their non-insurance arm would not void the warranty. At minimum their insurance arm must mark the car as totalled, in which case they must report it to the DMV as such.

 

[Hormold]

Good news from Tesla - access to the supercharger has been restored. On my case.

After 4.5 hours on the phone with support. But not the warranties, will continue this process after weekend.

 

[Mrbrock]

I think they don't want to do repairs sometimes and just send cars with minor defects to the auction in batches.

For example, same situation as mine:
Model 3 2023 SR.
But the car was sold with 2 miles odo (!!) from Tesla with clean documents after dent on right fender of the car (I think during delivery).

Bidfax: https://en.bidfax.info/tesla/model-...3-2023-white-motor-vin-5yj3e1ea6pf478585.html
Bidfax not show actual price. Auction price was higher than on website.

This car too has claimed as salvage by Tesla after auction report.
And warranty was voided week after sale, supercharged blocked.
This car bought with my car on IAAI (on same week from by same dealer).

A minor defect does not mean a salvaged title. Tesla would get insurance money instead of having it fixed and insurance paying for fix. Salvage means it has been determined a total loss by the insurance company (costs more to fix than car is worth). Dented sheetmetal at delivery is not a total loss. Sure, Tesla would rather replace car with another new one, sell the dented one at auction than repair and resell as new, it becomes someone else's problem and they have cash in pocket. That makes sense. But to declare such vehicles as salvaged and cut off SC access is wrong unless they can prove there is damage to the electrical system from the dent.

 

[exxxviii]

So Tesla marking a vehicle themselves as total loss by their non-insurance arm would not void the warranty. At minimum their insurance arm must mark the car as totalled, in which case they must report it to the DMV as such.

That assumes that the vehicle was even handled through a traditional insurance company. It may not have been. Tesla can unilaterally declare the vehicle anything they want, with or without insurance involved. See this provision in their warranty, just above the bullet you cited:

Vehicles that do not have clean title or have been sold, designated, labeled or branded as dismantled, fire-damaged, flood- damaged, junk, rebuilt, salvage, reconstructed, irreparable or a total loss;

A minor defect does not mean a salvaged title. Tesla would get insurance money instead of having it fixed and insurance paying for fix. Salvage means it has been determined a total loss by the insurance company (costs more to fix than car is worth). Dented sheetmetal at delivery is not a total loss. Sure, Tesla would rather replace car with another new one, sell the dented one at auction than repair and resell as new, it becomes someone else's problem and they have cash in pocket. That makes sense. But to declare such vehicles as salvaged and cut off SC access is wrong unless they can prove there is damage to the electrical system from the dent.

The car was not new. It was a 2-1/2 year old used vehicle that had been in an accident and then sold through a salvage auto auction, The extent of the accident was not revealed, but if Tesla salvaged the car, they might have thought it pretty bad.

 

[stopcrazypp]

That assumes that the vehicle was even handled through a traditional insurance company. It may not have been. Tesla can unilaterally declare the vehicle anything they want, with or without insurance involved. See this provision in their warranty, just above the bullet you cited:

I took that part was to clarify the title status (what is defined as not "clean"), not Tesla marking a car themselves in a internal database as such. All those are common designations used for title branding cars that may not necessarily be total loss. As otherwise that means Tesla can arbitrarily mark a car as such internally, and not disclose it to anyone, which is highly deceptive if selling the car at auction. At any rate, OP already had success fixing the salvage status in regards to supercharging, I expect the warranty would be the same.

 

[exxxviii]

I took that part was to clarify the title status (what is defined as not "clean"), not Tesla marking a car themselves in a internal database as such. All those are common designations used for title branding cars that may not necessarily be total loss. As otherwise that means Tesla can arbitrarily mark a car as such internally, and not disclose it to anyone, which is highly deceptive if selling the car at auction. At any rate, OP already had success fixing the salvage status in regards to supercharging, I expect the warranty would be the same.

This was not some secret action done in a secret database.

Tesla intentionally shipped the car to a salvage auction instead of three other nearby auctions. The day the auction closed and the car sold, IAAI reported the car to NMVTIS as a salvage car. IAAI did all this at Tesla's direction when they repped the car. When a car runs at auction, it has "lights" that indicate condition and announcements that declare condition. The buyers in the lane would have known and heard all this. Prime Sales' buyer had to know the car was salvage. He was at at a salvage auction, and most likely the auctioneer announced it as a salvage. There is no question Prime Sales screwed the OP.

Bought a model Y that I thought had clean title and found out it was salvage

get management on the phone for Carfax and Autocheck, as well as CA consumer protection and their DMV good luck, think a lawyer will def help, maybe legal threats will get the dealer to buy the MY back

teslamotorsclub.com

The point of my detailed post above was to encourage the OP/buyer to pursue Prime Sales to unwind the sale. They misrepresented the car (either intentionally or unintentionally, but if untintenionally, it was through their ignorance). In Tesla's mind, they [tpnsn;u did everything correctly and openly. It is a stretch to hope Tesla would undeclare a car salvage that they intentionally salvaged because of a dirty dealer.

 

[stopcrazypp]

This was not some secret action done in a secret database.

Tesla intentionally shipped the car to a salvage auction instead of three other nearby auctions. The day the auction closed and the car sold, IAAI reported the car to NMVTIS as a salvage car. IAAI did all this at Tesla's direction when they repped the car. When a car runs at auction, it has "lights" that indicate condition and announcements that declare condition. The buyers in the lane would have known and heard all this. Prime Sales' buyer had to know the car was salvage. He was at at a salvage auction, and most likely the auctioneer announced it as a salvage. There is no question Prime Sales screwed the OP.

Bought a model Y that I thought had clean title and found out it was salvage

get management on the phone for Carfax and Autocheck, as well as CA consumer protection and their DMV good luck, think a lawyer will def help, maybe legal threats will get the dealer to buy the MY back

teslamotorsclub.com

The point of my detailed post above was to encourage the OP/buyer to pursue Prime Sales to unwind the sale. They misrepresented the car (either intentionally or unintentionally, but if untintenionally, it was through their ignorance). In Tesla's mind, they [tpnsn;u did everything correctly and openly. It is a stretch to hope Tesla would undeclare a car salvage that they intentionally salvaged because of a dirty dealer.

But there is no evidence IAAI reported it as salvage or that Tesla marked the car as salvage internally prior to the sale. As per IAAI's disclaimer, not all sales done by them are salvage, but their sale may still be reported to a database where most cars there are salvage, so some databases would automatically assume it's salvage even if they are not.

Bought a model Y that I thought had clean title and found out it was salvage

"sometimes"???????

teslamotorsclub.com

My take is IAAI reported it as a sale done by their auction yard, and then after the sale Tesla's database automatically assumed it was salvage based on the sale reported as done by IAAI (exactly the scenario posted in the disclaimer). Incorrect salvage status has happened before and Tesla is able to fix (as they did with the supercharging). You seem to be assuming a salvage marking on Tesla's database is permanent and not reversible, when that is not the case. That's why I suggested OP to make 100% sure if title is clean and no title washing and go from there.

Yes it's possible the dealer lied, but then it shouldn't be possible to reverse the supercharger access if that was the case. Anyways I guess we will find out further when the warranty status is worked on.

Summary of my assumption:
Tesla Lease lists IAAI sale as clean title -> IAAI reports sale to NMVTIS as clean title -> Tesla uses NMVTIS or a database that takes from NMVTIS which assumes any sale on NMVTIS is salvage (as disclaimer by IAAI says may happen) -> Tesla marks car as salvage incorrectly (which is reversible)

Your assumption:
Tesla Lease marks car as salvage internally and lists IAAI sale as salvage (but with a clean title that is never changed to salvage?) -> IAAI discloses in auction Tesla has listed car as salvage and reports sale to NMVTIS as salvage -> Dealer is fully aware and lies about it to buyer taking advantage of title processing time/legal loophole
This would not be reversible given the car is salvage from the start and was marked without relying on a third party database.

I looked actually closer at the provisions of the vehicle code. Even if Tesla self insured the car, if they declare it internally as a total loss, they are still legally required to report it the DMV as such in 10 days and get it titled as salvage:
"(d) Whenever a total loss salvage vehicle is not the subject of an insurance settlement, a self-insurer, as defined in Section 16052, shall, within 10 days from the loss, forward the properly endorsed certificate of ownership or other evidence of ownership acceptable to the department, the license plates, and a fee in the amount of fifteen dollars ($15) to the department."
https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/vehicle-code/veh-sect-11515/
As such there isn't really a loophole where Tesla is allowed to have the car remain as a clean title in California while internally marking the car as salvage themselves.

 

[Mrbrock]

As above, titling is not done by Tesla, that is government. Tesla can declare all they want but if they don't report it, it doesn't get classified and thus isn't legal. I know the OP car was not new. I was responding to another comment how Tesla had sent a vehicle to auction that had 2 miles on it and was dented during initial delivery. That is not salvaged in any way, shape or form. Just another point that just because a car goes to auction, doesn't mean it is salvaged.

Also, in this case, since the car was leased, it would have insurance. Unless Tesla decided to swap the lessee's car with a new one, I'd hope it wouldn't be Tesla's decision as to whether to fix the car or not. Tesla isn't paying for insurance so how does that work? Having never leased a car, I don't know how accidents are handled when it comes to decision making.

 

[exxxviii]

But there is no evidence IAAI reported it as salvage or that Tesla marked the car as salvage internally prior to the sale.

Did you click the link I posted? The OP said IAAI reported the car to NMVTIS as a salvage car the day the auction closed and the car sold. They would only do this at Tesla’s explicit direction. It takes weeks for title transfer to Prime Sales and then to the owner, so we don’t know yet if IAAI put the brand on the title. But it is no assumption that IAAI reported the car as salvage to the national car salvage database on 5/3, when Prime Sales bought it.

The first two steps in your assumption path are incorrect, based on the facts the OP shared and how auctions operate. You also have a few false assumptions about title management and reporting, but that is moot given the first couple data points.

As above, titling is not done by Tesla, that is government. Tesla can declare all they want but if they don't report it, it doesn't get classified and thus isn't legal. I know the OP car was not new. I was responding to another comment how Tesla had sent a vehicle to auction that had 2 miles on it and was dented during initial delivery. That is not salvaged in any way, shape or form. Just another point that just because a car goes to auction, doesn't mean it is salvaged.

Also, in this case, since the car was leased, it would have insurance. Unless Tesla decided to swap the lessee's car with a new one, I'd hope it wouldn't be Tesla's decision as to whether to fix the car or not. Tesla isn't paying for insurance so how does that work? Having never leased a car, I don't know how accidents are handled when it comes to decision making.

The owner or agent of the car declares it as a salvage. Insurance was probably not involved, but that is irrelevant. Tesla took the car back from the original lease a year before the accident. Tesla had owned it for a while apart from the lease. And even in the case of the 2 mile car, if Tesla declared it a salvage and sent it to a salvage auction, it is a salvage car regardless of what anyone thinks about the extend of the damage.